Oversight of GM team

[Suno_Regin]

Nah, it'll be another year before I'm banned. =P

[Caarrie]

If we have a problem as a gm it does not take more then a day to contact talad or another gm for advice adding another person would just make it slower. We do not need anyone else between the gms and talad and we do not need the players going to another person if they have a problem with the gms to get it fixed just go to another gm and explain the problem. We have a system in place and it works for us if we need another system we will make suggestions that work for us. Again we do not want to complicate the situation anymore then it is already.

[Syilph]

Ok, I understand what the function of this liaison person is now. But, I don't see whow this position differs from the position of GM team leader. That's what the GM team leader should do, monitor the performance of the GMs, approach Talad if there are problems, etc. I agree this position is needed, as now the GM team has no leader, and I agree that there might be some GMs that might seem cocky to some people, or seem to ignore certain people [maybe one of the later might even be me, although I don't recall any situation that would clasify me as cocky or "ignoring people"] but really, I don't see the point of creating this "position" and name it differently than "GM team leader". True, it might take some load off the GM leader's back but if this Liaison does nothing inside the GM team, as you said, how can he/she get an objective oppinion about what is going on?
Besides this whole ideea starts from the assumption that the GM leader will be somehow sunbjective and will take the side of the GMs. But then again, who guarantees that the Liaison won't be subjective and take a side or another? We are people after all, and people _are_ subjective.

[Bereror]

The GM team is monitored by the Dev team. The fact that GM actions aren't overruled in the public doesn't mean that we don't monitor their activities. We just don't bring it to the public. Any GM commands are recorded on the server and they can always be checked if there is a doubt of GM abuse. Also the /report command works both for players and GMs if you think that a GM responded you in an inappropriate way. Just make sure that you have a good case before you report a GM

Some players just tend to have conflicts with any authorities, being them GMs or devs or <put your name here>. I don't see how a new position called "liaison" could solve that problem. Most of the players have solved their issues in one or another way, sometimes involving devs and sometimes Talad.

[zanzibar]

If we have a problem as a gm it does not take more then a day to contact talad or another gm for advice adding another person would just make it slower. We do not need anyone else between the gms and talad and we do not need the players going to another person if they have a problem with the gms to get it fixed just go to another gm and explain the problem. We have a system in place and it works for us if we need another system we will make suggestions that work for us. Again we do not want to complicate the situation anymore then it is already.

Players would not go to the Liaison unless there was a good reason not to go to Talad or another GM.

The liaison would not be between the GMs and Talad, as I have explained in earlier posts.

This is not a new system.  This is an improvement to the current system.

[Suno_Regin]

Any change to an old system is a new system...=/

[zanzibar]

Ok, I understand what the function of this liaison person is now. But, I don't see whow this position differs from the position of GM team leader.

The GM team leader is in a conflict of interests because he or she is self-reporting.  The liaison position would ballance this fact.  The liaison has very different duties than the GM team leader; they are not at all the same position.

Besides this whole ideea starts from the assumption that the GM leader will be somehow sunbjective and will take the side of the GMs. But then again, who guarantees that the Liaison won't be subjective and take a side or another? We are people after all, and people _are_ subjective.

It's not a matter of objectivity.  It's a matter of problems inherent to self-reporting.

Some players just tend to have conflicts with any authorities

Personal attacks are unwarranted and irrelevant.

[Caarrie]

Ok, I understand what the function of this liaison person is now. But, I don't see whow this position differs from the position of GM team leader.

The GM team leader is in a conflict of interests because he or she is self-reporting.  The liaison position would ballance this fact.  The liaison has very different duties than the GM team leader; they are not at all the same position.

The gm leader is trusted more then any gm on the team why would they have a problem bring issues to others or having issues brought to them? i dont see a problem or need for anyone else in the system. The leader would not know they need to report themselves another gm might hear of a problem bring it to the team or go to talad.

[zanzibar]

The gm leader is trusted more then any gm on the team why would they have a problem bring issues to others or having issues brought to them? i dont see a problem or need for anyone else in the system. The leader would not know they need to report themselves another gm might hear of a problem bring it to the team or go to talad.

There have been problems with GM team leaders in the past and it's possible that there will be problems in the future.

As the Planeshift project grows, more and more people will be involved in things such as developement, moderation, and the game masters.  Talad simply cannot do everything by himself and it's unfair to ask him to monitor and take care of everything.  Micromanagement will become only more problematic as time goes on.

Editted to add:  Also, the developers have duties of their own to take care of, so to say that they're already filling the role of liaison doesn't make sense because no one is specified to dedicate their time to such things.

Editted again to add:  There's nothing to say that the liaison couldn't also look for things going well and people doing a good job.

[Bereror]

Personal attacks are unwarranted and irrelevant.

I wasn't attacking anybody, just telling what I have seen. I'm sorry if you take everything as a personal attack.

As the Planeshift project grows, more and more people will be involved in things such as developement, moderation, and the game masters.  Talad simply cannot do everything by himself and it's unfair to ask him to monitor and take care of everything.  Micromanagement will become only more problematic as time goes on.

Right now the PS team, both devs and GMs, is small and also the player base is small. Any problems should be possible to solve by just talking to GMs or devs. If that doesn't help, how would a liaison help? When the project gets larger, things may change and there might be a reason to have somebody who is acting as a liaison between players and GMs (or devs).

[zanzibar]

I'm sorry if you take everything as a personal attack.

*laughs out loud*  You do realize that saying I take everything as a personal attack is, itself, a personal attack? 

Right now the PS team, both devs and GMs, is small and also the player base is small. Any problems should be possible to solve by just talking to GMs or devs. If that doesn't help, how would a liaison help?

Would you agree that Talad has a busy life?

When the project gets larger, things may change and there might be a reason to have somebody who is acting as a liaison between players and GMs (or devs).

If a liaison position would be useful in the future, then it might be good to establish the position now.  And even though the community here is small, the GM team still has its problems (from time to time).

[Bereror]

If a liaison position would be useful in the future, then it might be good to establish the position now.  And even though the community here is small, the GM team still has its problems (from time to time).

Well, I have my own little company. I have just me and one more person working for it, but it may grow in the future. Should I hire a lawyer and a financial manager now, perhaps even a board of directors just because the company may grow and I will need them in the future? Sure, there have been times when I wished I had a lawyer and a financial manager, especially when I got some cryptic requirements from the tax office that only they could understand, but I have managed without them so far

You hire new people and introduce new positions when there is a need for them, not when you think that you may need them in the future. Unless you have a clear picture that you will have 100.000 players and 1.000 GMs in the next one year and you have to plan now how to manage them. Otherwise you proceed step by step and do whatever is needed now.

[zanzibar]

Well, I have my own little company. I have just me and one more person working for it, but it may grow in the future. Should I hire a lawyer and a financial manager now, perhaps even a board of directors just because the company may grow and I will need them in the future? Sure, there have been times when I wished I had a lawyer and a financial manager, especially when I got some cryptic requirements from the tax office that only they could understand, but I have managed without them so far

You hire new people and introduce new positions when there is a need for them, not when you think that you may need them in the future. Unless you have a clear picture that you will have 100.000 players and 1.000 GMs in the next one year and you have to plan now how to manage them. Otherwise you proceed step by step and do whatever is needed now.

Actually, yes.  It would be unwise to not have a lawyer you know you can go to as a consultant and legal aid.  He or she doesn't need to be on staff or paid a salary, but you should have someone to go to when the need arises.  You should be your own financial manager, but having a financial consultant on salary would not be financially sound for you.  However, devs work for free.

If it turns out to be unneeded, then that's great.  You're on easy street.  And if it turns out to be something useful in the future, then it's good to establish the position now to get people used to it and to sort out any of the kinks.

[Caarrie]

Just for the record most of the gms on the team today were not on the team in 2005 there was a reorginazation of the team and many that did stay after that time have since left or changed what they do for the team. Please do not judge us by something someone that might not be on the team did in the past

[Tarel]

I am not joining this pointless discussion, but like to remind everyone about the rules.
The old GM-team was disbanded in december 2005 and in january 2006 a new GM-team was created by Talad.
The new GM-team is not responsible for the actions of the old GM-team.

http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=22697.0

COMPLAINTS AGAINST GMS

If you have any complaints about GMs, whether you feel they are abusing their powers or treating someone unfairly, please read the following.

You can join the #PlaneShift channel on IRC and speak directly with a developer or administrator. This requires an IRC client; if you do not have one, download mIRC. Use IRC to connect to the following:

server: chat.freenode.com
channel: #planeshift

Speak with either Vengeance (Venge), Acraig or Talad. Venge primarily, if you can find him - they are the only three people who have access to do anything about GMs.

When speaking with Vengeance or any other dev about the problem, give as much information as possible, and provide chat logs that can back up your claims. Chat logs are located in your PS folder's "logs" directory.

If a developer is there but doesn't respond, please don't bug them. In this case you can either wait until they are not idle (they're all extremely busy people!) or email Acraig and he will get back to you about the problem. Acraig's email address is acraig at planeshift.it


YOU MAY NOT POST THREADS OR REPLIES ON THIS FORUM OR DISCUSS PUBLICALLY IN IRC WITH THE INTENT OF ARGUING OVER GM DECISIONS, RULES, OR ACTIVITIES. THESE ARE NOT VALID TOPICS OF DISCUSSION FOR ANY PUBLIC AREA. YOU MUST DISCUSS THE MATTER IN PRIVATE WITH THE GM(s) INVOLVED AND/OR GAME ADMINS ONLY. MODERATORS HAVE THE RIGHT TO DELETE OR EDIT ANY POST OR THREAD DISCUSSING GM ISSUES.

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