[GUILD] The Ale Saints

[lordraleigh]

@Parallo: The greek philosophers didn't know about Big Bang or Evolution but still some of them developed atheistic beliefs and even the definition of what makes a god was many time argued about. The difference is that while in RL the burden of proof lies to the religions as no concrete proof of the existence of a god was found, thus being based only on faith. In PS the burden of proof lies on the atheists as there is no proof that Talad and Laanx are not really gods but beings like Cortez when he reached America, that are believed to be gods. In the end everything turns into an absolute nihilism and nobody will ever know the "truth" in Planeshift about for example where did the Ylians came from and whether they came from the work of an unknown god or not.

This guild is justifiable, although its association of ale with atheism will bother some people in Yliakum, and I do not mean religious ones.

[Parallo]

I'm fairly sure that Aquinas came after the greek philosophers. They didn't have the idea of a constant regress.

[lordraleigh]

I was referring to the negative definition of atheism. Something also known as nontheism. It is the only appliable definition on PS, the absence of belief in deities instead of the disbelief that such beings exist.

[Parallo]

Well that theory in itself is flawed because something caused us to be here. You can't just say I don't believe without proposing some sort of more likely alternative.

[lordraleigh]

Well that theory in itself is flawed because something caused us to be here. You can't just say I don't believe without proposing some sort of more likely alternative.

Even if you are right on claiming that it doesn't mean such beliefs aren't applicable to Yliakum as there are many gaps like for example the origin of ylians, there. Also from the way settings describe things Diaboli and Klyros are normally atheists.

[Parallo]

Usually theism tries to fill gaps. Ask Laanx priests and they'll go as far as to tell you that Talad doesn't exist and Laanx created all of us. I could just as easily say the same thing now. Anything is compatible with theism.

[lordraleigh]

Usually theism tries to fill gaps. Ask Laanx priests and they'll go as far as to tell you that Talad doesn't exist and Laanx created all of us. I could just as easily say the same thing now. Anything is compatible with theism.

Not as there is an opposing church to them and they do not monopolize the value and belief-systems in Yliakum  like the way the Catholic Church did in the middle ages in Europe.

[Parallo]

The catholic church was opposed to the Islamic one. There was only a monopoly over europe the same way Laanxism will have a monopoly ove the Temple of Laanx.

[lordraleigh]

I saw a NPC that believes in Talad, the Laanx worshippers and even one with a naturalistic religion, there's no monopoly of a single faith in Yliakum. Thus there's nothing wrong about the Ale Saints and their beliefs that came from some philosophical thought.

Aren't there people that believe in the so called "Conspiracy Theories" today even though many present evidences against them?

[Parallo]

Aren't there people that believe in the so called "Conspiracy Theories" today even though many present evidences against them?

Ah, see? My point. You can't justify it.

[lordraleigh]

I've already justified it several times. Here's the brief of everything I put as justifications:

1) It's on the Settings as you can create atheist characters.

2) Atheism had origins on Eastern philosophies and some of its basic premises to modern view on it came from Western philosophers

3) There's more than one religion in Yliakum. Of course besides those mentioned, there's also the Black Flame. It means it's a pretty heated up place on such matters.

4) Most races were brought by Laanx or Talad, not created by them, thus it opens space for philosophy on their origins.

5) The surface world is somewhat known as it's the origin of words like "Azure Sun", but neither of the existing gods claim to be the creator of the whole world from where Yliakum is just a part.

6) Talad and Laanx, as not the responsible for the creation of the whole world or of most of existing races, could be viewed differently according to each definition on what is a god.

7) Diaboli and Klyros are mentioned as mostly atheist.

Conclusion: The Ale Saints, although having an unsettling way of having the idea of atheism, are mostly fitting in PS Settings.

[Parallo]

I've already justified it several times. Here's the brief of everything I put as justifications:

1) It's on the Settings as you can create atheist characters.

2) Atheism had origins on Eastern philosophies and some of its basic premises to modern view on it came from Western philosophers

3) There's more than one religion in Yliakum. Of course besides those mentioned, there's also the Black Flame. It means it's a pretty heated up place on such matters.

4) Most races were brought by Laanx or Talad, not created by them, thus it opens space for philosophy on their origins.

5) The surface world is somewhat known as it's the origin of words like "Azure Sun", but neither of the existing gods claim to be the creator of the whole world from where Yliakum is just a part.

6) Talad and Laanx, as not the responsible for the creation of the whole world or of most of existing races, could be viewed differently according to each definition on what is a god.

7) Diaboli and Klyros are mentioned as mostly atheist.

Conclusion: The Ale Saints, although having an unsettling way of having the idea of atheism, are mostly fitting in PS Settings.

1) It doesn't matter what is in the settings. I could believe in invisable unicorns but I wouldn't be able to justify it.

2) Don't see what that has to do with it.

3) The religions are compatible with each other so I don't see what that has to do with it either.

4) Aye, one could speculate that there are other gods.

5) See 4.

6) True. They want worship however and to think that they won't be upset without it is silly.

7)That is a confusing use of the word. Doesn't justify being an atheist though.

[lordraleigh]

1) It doesn't matter what is in the settings. I could believe in invisable unicorns but I wouldn't be able to justify it.

2) Don't see what that has to do with it.

3) The religions are compatible with each other so I don't see what that has to do with it either.

4) Aye, one could speculate that there are other gods.

5) See 4.

6) True. They want worship however and to think that they won't be upset without it is silly.

7)That is a confusing use of the word. Doesn't justify being an atheist though.

1) Cortez was considered as a god by some of the American natives for example, there's no way to justify logically the belief in a god. Specially due to the way that Laanx and Talad reflect somewhat the old pantheons of gods with human-like attitudes.

2) It means that atheism is much older of a concept, even in a world where the exitence of gods was considered by most as truth. Also many of the natural phenomena like rainstorms were seen as proof of the existence of gods and of their manifestation due to lack of knowledge. Although in this case atheism is: The disbelief that the so called gods are really gods.

4 and 5) Or that there isn't any true god

6) Yes, just change the "Government" page and put "Yliakum is a despotic theocracy ruled by Talad and Laanx with iron fists where all those who refuse to worship are slaughtered". Also it means Klyros and Diaboli would probably be extinct.

7) Most klyros are atheist and most of those probably see Laanx as some kind of demon. Most diaboli refuse worshipping of gods as well.

This is my final message.

[Xus]

Kay, let's set some things straight:

1) IT'S NOT AN ATHEISTIC GUILD, it just takes on a more secular and modern view of creation.

2) The views aren't even the main point of the guild (as will be explained in PART II; I would've written it already, but I'm busy preparing for an interview with a Harvard Alumnus and watching you two bicker).

3) The main point, instead, is that the guild is committed to supporting more unconventional views, no matter what they may be, and defending the persons who have the view from evil people like that Maletus.

4) As I said in number one, IT'S NOT AN ATHEISTIC GUILD.  Therefore, I won't have to fit ale and atheism together.  In addition, as I said earlier in the thread (thought I don't expect you both to have read it), the "Ale" part of the title is just being used poetically to express that the "Saints" of the guild are, in fact, not all that saintly, and yet still pure of heart and devout to SOMETHING (as the "Saints" part expresses).

5) The "Ale Saints" is also an obscure reference to the "baptism by ale" which occurred within PART I of the background story.

[Parallo]

There's no point raliegh. You don't listen. Makes more sense Xus. I'll wait for the next part.