Played for 5 days, and just un-instaled, heres why

[Proteous]

Please dont missunderstand me, im not knocking you for not questing, im just pointing out that if you want to play the game and RP to the maxumum potential of the settings, you will have no choice but to quest.

[Nikodemus]

deja vu?

then "magic" "shop" or both.
If there are few hits, Harnquists ask you which you meant.

But what about sword making?

same principle but key words you just used ;s
are you on drugs? ;P

[Garon]

Funnily enough, when being asked if I would like to learn sword making from Harnquist I replied three times "I would like to learn sword making Harnquist" + "I am interested in learning sword making Harnquist" and finally "teach me sword making harnquist"

Why would I get completely rid of a game due to these three things not working?

Quite simply, if nether of those phrases works, imho, this game is incredibilly flawed, I have felt, everytime I have asked an npc, that I am playing an impossible game, now this is supposed to be a roleplaying, no spoiler-sites game, yet the first npc you are told to speak to refuses to talk because YOU DIDN'T PHRASE IT RIGHT?!? In EQ, this kinda quest system worked, because it worked on KEYWORDS, not entire complete exact sentences! All I feel in PS is that I have to talk to npc-shaped robots, and after five days of it, I find the desire to do anything in PS has left me, this is a massive shame, I was looking forward to  getting into this game, I loved it when I first started it up, it reminded me of EQ, there was RP (missing from SO MANY rpg's!) and people were willing to help.

This game's system works on keywords too, as far as I can tell, but when someone asks "would you like to do x?", you don't need to restate the question... I believe they know what they asked and don't need to be reminded of it.  Saying "Yes" to questions like that is what most people would do....  It's not that you didn't phrase it right, it's that you didn't understand the system, which is different from Everquest's in some ways.

Also, keep in mind that Everquest is a commercially funded, finished game.  Planeshift is at -most- a little less then 1/3 finished, afaik, and isn't commercially funded.  Huge difference between one and the other.

[zanzibar]

deja vu?

then "magic" "shop" or both.
If there are few hits, Harnquists ask you which you meant.

But what about sword making?

same principle but key words you just used ;s
are you on drugs? ;P

But I just demonstrated how the key words I used could have opposite meanings depending on context.

[ramlambmoo]

The NPCs communication has to change, or one of the goals to avoid spoiling at all goes to hell. Sorry to rush you guys, you know all this very well, but it is that bad currently. I hope you manage to fix it, even if basing on the current system, not making new one.

Great Nikodemus, I suppose the Dev team can expect to see your application shortly, volunteering your time to fix this problem?

There's a gigantic gap between "The NPC dialog system is not great" to "Oh, here are the required x hours of programming time donated by someone to fix it".  Unless you know c++ and are going to volunteer to improve it, then you really have no right to complain about it not getting fixed.  People know this is a problem.  Nobody has been able to devote resources to making it better yet.  Live with it.

*Attacks random people with a huge "Pre-alpha" sign*

But I just demonstrated how the key words I used could have opposite meanings depending on context.

I raised this point while having a discussion with various peoples about implementing such a system (keyword based) and we concluded that players would simply have to stick to simple sentences, and not try and provide too much information in one go.  So they would say "No I don't want to learn sword making." and then "Can you tell me where the magic shop is?".  I think that system working well would be at least and improvement; complex sentences do break a keyword based system, but simple sentences let alone complex ones hardly work in the current system.

[Nikodemus]

Alright, i won't be exception and make the quote even bigger

deja vu?

then "magic" "shop" or both.
If there are few hits, Harnquists ask you which you meant.

But what about sword making?

same principle but key words you just used ;s
are you on drugs? ;P

But I just demonstrated how the key words I used could have opposite meanings depending on context.

"No, I do not wish to learn sword making.  Where's the magic shop?"

I suppose it is the demonstration, if not then i don't know.
If you ask this a NPC, then you are assuming the NPC is more inteligent than we ever expect. It would ned to have scripted to ignore "No, I do not wish to learn sword making." and care only about "Where's the magic shop?". Here the keywords are "magic" "shop" or both, as i wrote.
The NPC most likely won't be that smart and you have two options.
a) do not write about this what the NPC should ignore anyway
b) write it and expect 4 keywords for the NPC to take under consideration, which are "sword" "sword making" "magic" and "shop" and the NPC is gona ask you starting from the most probably hit to the less probably.
Do you understand now, or I'm on drugs this time?

Great Nikodemus, I suppose the Dev team can expect to see your application shortly, volunteering your time to fix this problem?

There's a gigantic gap between "The NPC dialog system is not great" to "Oh, here are the required x hours of programming time donated by someone to fix it".  Unless you know c++ and are going to volunteer to improve it, then you really have no right to complain about it not getting fixed.  People know this is a problem.  Nobody has been able to devote resources to making it better yet.  Live with it.

*Attacks random people with a huge "Pre-alpha" sign*

But I just demonstrated how the key words I used could have opposite meanings depending on context.

* Nikodemus get hit by the sign and fries ramlambmoo with a lighting bolt ;P

Yeah, i can as well stay shut, say nothing and look like everything is right. The Devs would also feel like there is no big problem and it doesn't really matter that sine the CB the questing system didn't really change at all. There is only more quests, only one can't enjoy them, because there is no communication with NPCs
Besides, do i have to give ideas in every of my posts where i tell it is wrong? hell no, i will make it in next posts.

[zanzibar]

"I want to learn sword making."

"I do not want to learn sword making."


Both sentences have the phrase "sword making" in them, but they mean opposite things.

Do you understand now?

[Nikodemus]

"I want to learn sword making."

"I do not want to learn sword making."


Both sentences have the phrase "sword making" in them, but they mean opposite things.

Do you understand now?

Yeah, and I said (well, not really said, because it counted for different example, but it count for it too) the NPc will ask you which you mean't
If we wan't to avoid it, "do not" and its combinations become anotther key words, which give meaning to the whole. If there still problem with NPC, it should ask you, so that you can use simple "no" or "yes"

[drah]

Here's an example though, of where keywords don't seem to be used but they certainly would have helped:

- "I've found the key" -- doesn't work (or at least didn't may do now since it's been a while!)
- "found key" -- does work.

Here a sentence of less than 10 words with both "found" and "key" in (and in that order) should really work, even if technically the sentence used isn't grammatically correct.

I was thinking of sentence parsing, using a topic/subject array with an ability to apply a known verb to each topic/subject... and thought about how this would work (starting at the end of the input and working backwards)

Example:

"No, I do not wish to learn sword making.  Where's the magic shop?"

"magic shop" - known entity/location/topic in DB. - topics for this sentence now include "magic shop"
"the" - skipped as it immediately preceded a known entity.
"where's" - location request. (Also the capitalisation of the first letter and it being preceded by a full-stop indicate this is the start of the sentence.

So, we know already that this communication ends with a sentence that is a location-request for "magic shop".

---

"sword making" - known entity/location/topic in DB. - topics for this sentence now include "sword making".
"learn" - known common verb/action - verbs in relation to topics in this sentence now "learn".
"wish to" - known common verb/action - verbs in relation to topics in this sentence now "learn", "desire".
"not" - negate all verbs between here and the subject/topic.
"I" - context first-person.

We know the player-character does not wish to do something.  For this part of their input, an NPC response of "Fair enough." could then be added prior to responding to the second sentence, which could then deal with the location to the Magic Shop.

[Shangreloo]

The NPCs communication has to change, or one of the goals to avoid spoiling at all goes to hell. Sorry to rush you guys, you know all this very well, but it is that bad currently. I hope you manage to fix it, even if basing on the current system, not making new one.

Great Nikodemus, I suppose the Dev team can expect to see your application shortly, volunteering your time to fix this problem?

There's a gigantic gap between "The NPC dialog system is not great" to "Oh, here are the required x hours of programming time donated by someone to fix it".  Unless you know c++ and are going to volunteer to improve it, then you really have no right to complain about it not getting fixed.  People know this is a problem.  Nobody has been able to devote resources to making it better yet.  Live with it.

*Attacks random people with a huge "Pre-alpha" sign*

I started playing PS during Molecular Blue and quickly got bored/frustrated with the game. I never deleted my account, though neither did I play unil the new release in (I think) late August of 2006. At the time I originally started playing PS (MB), PS was said to be Beta.  That aside though, the originator of this thread (Airjam) has a very valid point: The quests are frustrating simply because of the manner in which NPC's communicate -- or don't communicate, as the case may be. The purpose of a quest should be to solve a puzzle, hopefully ending with some kind of reward at the end of the puzzle. Quests can be fun to do.. and they should be. However, when a player gets stuck on a quest not because they can't figure out a solution to the problem, but because they can't figure out the exact phrase to use with an NPC, there's a problem. There is also a problem associated with not being able to do two or more quests concurrently with the same NPC. Several NPC's are used for a series of quests in the BD area. If you happen to start that series of quests in the wrong order. good luck completing the series of quests. There were several I had started, had to discard to go back and get the beginning quest, and now I can't seem to get the subsequent quests a second time.

Old quests should be fixed so that they are working correctly before new material is added to the game. No, I don't know c++, so I'm not in a position to help with programming, but common sense should dictate that a base is solid before one starts adding more material to it. Perhaps no one on the PS development team has been able to devote the resources to making the current quest system better, but why then are they devoting resources in adding more quests to it?

Perhaps one of the reasons people use quest guides is because they need to know the exact phrases to say to NPC's to get to the next part of a quest, or to complete a quest. Most of the time, when I ask a friend in game for help with a quest it's along the lines of, "What the heck do I have to say to (insert name of NPC here) ?"

[ramlambmoo]

Yeah, i can as well stay shut, say nothing and look like everything is right. The Devs would also feel like there is no big problem and it doesn't really matter that sine the CB the questing system didn't really change at all. There is only more quests, only one can't enjoy them, because there is no communication with NPCs Wink
Besides, do i have to give ideas in every of my posts where i tell it is wrong? hell no, i will make it in next posts.

Yes, but the devs fully realise there is a problem.  Its been stated about 20 times before, and was the topic of the thread.  I just don't see the point in repeating it over and over unless there's something constructive to be said, in which case it should really be said in the wishlist forum if you have a good idea.

[Sangwa]

Please dont missunderstand me, im not knocking you for not questing, im just pointing out that if you want to play the game and RP to the maxumum potential of the settings, you will have no choice but to quest.

Hardly true. I've played PS since Molecular Blue. And even in Molecular Blue there were quests. I haven't done one single quest up until today though. And I roleplay. Oh, I sure do. To the "maximum potential." Quests are just things people (NPCs) order you to do. And Sangwa only cares about imperialist orders.

The other reason is actually the NPC system. I don't think the rewards are worth my patience ^^.

[Nikodemus]

Yes, but the devs fully realise there is a problem.  Its been stated about 20 times before, and was the topic of the thread.  I just don't see the point in repeating it over and over unless there's something constructive to be said, in which case it should really be said in the wishlist forum if you have a good idea.

Alright, but can we be sure they really realise it? Everyone knows there is a problem, but where is it? Which part? I believe these discussions help to understand nature of the problem. Personally I'm suprised, that for example the idea of NPC asking you what you mean, basing on keywords is over 6 months old and we can't see it in game. What we see is bunch of new quests, NPC answers. Only what for all this if you can't dig that from the NPC?
Also if in halfway you realise that making a quest you should focus on certain things, to make it more intuitive and probably add additional answers, wich make it twice as much work... suddently you have 50 quests to fix. It is great devs do quests, but it is worrying that no matter how much there will be of them, you can't enjoy this. Content without use.
But i do remember that the setting devs team has grown bigger only rcently and it is when the quests system really started to develop. Only if after a year the quests will base on the same principles as now and none of the ideas will be proposed, i will be really disappointed.

[ramlambmoo]

Alright, but can we be sure they really realise it? Everyone knows there is a problem, but where is it? Which part? I believe these discussions help to understand nature of the problem. Personally I'm suprised, that for example the idea of NPC asking you what you mean, basing on keywords is over 6 months old and we can't see it in game. What we see is bunch of new quests, NPC answers. Only what for all this if you can't dig that from the NPC?

As I said before, if you think that constructive points are be raised and it will help the developers, then make a wishlist thread detailing the outcome.  That will be helpful.

I don't think the idea of basing keywords if merely 6 months old- its a simple concept that has surely been around since planeshift started.  The point which you don't seem to get by expecting it to be in game is that obviously all the developers are busy with other things at the moment.  I'm almost positive that new quests and NPC answers are not done by someone on the engine team who would be otherwise coding something.  That is why we have new content but not new developments in that area.  It's better than nothing.  Until then, construct away, but don't be surprised when an idea is only 6 months old and yet "we still haven't seen it in game".

Who says this idea is so great anyway?? In theory it works well, but in theory the current system works good anyway.  I am in no way surprised that this isn't the biggest priority at the moment because it would have to be prototyped and extensively tested first.  If you could come up with an algorithm for describing in detail how the system will go from the player's input to the NPC reaction, that would be helpful.  Describing how the system gets it done is alot better than providing examples of what it does.

Lastly you have to accept the priorities of the developers- this may seem the most important thing to you, but other people obviously have other priorities- there are often more critical bugs to be fixed.  Even if you could describe the algorithm complete with system flowcharts and input-output diagrams it could well be longer than 6 months before it's in game.

[Nikodemus]

The winch quest is prelude to problems, which come solely from the fact you can't really communicate with NPCs. We all like the bugs being fixed, but adding something what for sure won't work isn't the right side of the path. What we have now may be for testing puposes and  so the purpose was reached, is it been tested out and people gave their opinion. Now, if similiar things will be added in future, without fixing the critical element - NPCs, it will be wrong.
Now i could sit doing nothing, like everything were fine. Heck, everybody could do so, so you wouldn't complain on that fact. Along your logic, the devs know whats wrong anyway and what isn't, so everything is fine, right? You say it and i say the Devs are asking for our opinion, to know whats wrong.

Of  course i rather would like devs doing quests over no work at all, but you know, there is a limit somewhere. It don't have to be that way that the done quests will stay as they are. They may as well go through heavy modifications for the future fixes with communication, and half of the job done now may be a waste. Nothing is sure, besides the fact it is all basically the same since first CB day. Don't tell me like everything were fine and we should stay shut or join the team. Quests are very important RP aspect of the game.
Whatever, you won't change you mind.