[GUILD] The Crooks - Updated

[zanzibar]

He's right about the polititian thing though. Asides from that he's wrong.

Except that I think the intention behind the term was more akin to Sangwa's interpretation.

[Under the moon]

Facts, folks, argue with facts. You completely ignored where I wrote that it would be perfectly within the Settings of this game for an actual Vigesimi to be in Munkii's pocket. Unlikely, yes, but still within the bounds of the given information.

Opinions, Zanzabar, as all of you statements are, do not constitute a valid argument. It is your opinion that I do not have the ability to be critical of a guild. Others have the opposite opinion. Simply put, neither of you have enough personal knowledge of me to make that judgment. Until you do, take a back seat. I am not wrong, for the facts clearly point out that I am right. I shall further narrow my statement to say that a guild in this game does not have any more power than a single person. A single person does not have the ability to truly change anything within the IC settings. That is a fact. Your examples permit only that which happens between characters. What has any guild done IC to permanently change anything? For that matter, what guild has done anything to temporarily change anything? RP events come and go, and never leave a footprint. I know this better than any. What you describe as power is nothing more than imagined. Do you have the power to touch any of my characters? No. Your claims to power are just smoke in the wind.

As for constructive criticism, I have not seen much constructive in it at all. The main goal of many of the posters in this thread does not seem to have the feel of betterment behind them, but of just wanting this guild to go away. I just re-read all the posts, and the only "constructive" criticism that people were giving -in a greatly demeaning way- is that the rank of lockpick should have to pick locks, and that he could not have a politician working for him. Both of these are unfounded and false claims. First, as said, these are guild TITLES only, and do not have to have any bearing on what the folks holding them actually do. A lockpick could very well be a demeaning term for a newer person. New detectives were once called gumshoes. Did they have gum on their shoes? No. In a gang group, do you think new members are going to have the respect of a established one? The part about the politician I have proven wrong in detail. Even if Sangwa is right in his interpretation, he is still wrong, as the info he based that opinion on is wrong.

For once, start using you brains to figure out what could actually be, rather than what should not be, based on you opinions. I am sure I could go through most every guild made, and find things to pick out based on the known facts. The further fact is that I have looked through the post Munkii made about his guild, and have found -nothing- that goes against the Settings, current gameplay, or human ability. It is the boast of an overly ambitious punk (meaning Munkii's character, not Munkii himself). It is the same as if a gang leader in any given city of today was to look at his buddies and say "Some day, guys, we are going to own this town."

Wrong? I think not.

[zanzibar]

Facts, folks, argue with facts. You completely ignored where I wrote that it would be perfectly within the Settings of this game for an actual Vigesimi to be in Munkii's pocket. Unlikely, yes, but still within the bounds of the given information.

No one's saying it would be outside of the settings.  It's just not a practical goal for him to have - not for where he is now, anyway.

Opinions, Zanzabar, as all of you statements are, do not constitute a valid argument.

Unless you're talking about opinions.

It is your opinion that I do not have the ability to be critical of a guild.

I don't recall saying that.

I am not wrong, for the facts clearly point out that I am right. I shall further narrow my statement to say that a guild in this game does not have any more power than a single person. A single person does not have the ability to truly change anything within the IC settings. That is a fact.

Sure thing, but it's only one example of how power can be used.  There are many others, and you did not specify which ones you were talking about in particular.

Your examples permit only that which happens between characters.

So what?  You did not specify what you meant by power.  Things that happen between characters can be used to demonstrate power.

As for constructive criticism, I have not seen much constructive in it at all.

Really?  That's odd.  I've seen tonnes between the two threads.  Must be a difference of opinion.

For once, start using you brains to figure out what could actually be, rather than what should not be, based on you opinions.

You must hate double negatives.

It is the boast of an overly ambitious punk (meaning Munkii's character, not Munkii himself). It is the same as if a gang leader in any given city of today was to look at his buddies and say "Some day, guys, we are going to own this town."  Wrong? I think not.

I doubt that it's Munkii's intention to be a punk on the street making outlandish claims.

[Under the moon]

Most goals people set for themselves are not practical, especially when they are about achieving power.

First, he's hardly the first person to be critical of the guild.

Losing our memory in our old age, are we?

Guilds simply have no power over me, nor the vast majority of players. That is just a simple fact. You may try to claim you have power, but it is a paltry thing. The only power you have is that which others allow you to have. A simple /ignore takes all your claimed power away, and the game goes on.

Now I give you your moment to shine in all of you quote giving glory, Zanzi. Point out the exact points where constructive criticism was given in -this- thread. Note that they must be based on actual fact and not assumed fact. Lay 'em on me.

Lastly, you must be an extrodinary mind reader, as I don't know what Munkii is intending. Besides, intention is the same as setting a goal. Not all goals are achieved, and just because something may not be achieved, it does not mean it should never be tried. If that was the truth, there would be no PS, and you would be bothering someone else on another forum.

[lordraleigh]

Who knows if this funny and non serious aspect is just a disguise to make others underestimate Munkii or if this all is nothing but a smokescreen for something more secretive?

[Nurahk]

Yay for long winded arguments by people who just can't admit they are wrong.

It's an interesting point saying that guilds do not have power.  The only way to back that up is by bringing forth the argument that people do not have to RP.  So yes, if the game wasn't centralized around RP, I would agree, the guild has no power.  As it is, many people respect the power that the guilds have, for instance, during the Demorian Lords time the Demorian Lords stayed away from the Dark Empire and the Dark Empire away from the Demorian Lords, why?  Because they both feared the other groups power among other reasons.

A guild's power is based solely on the ability of others to roleplay.  This will always be true, to give a guild the ability to have power would be to open up the possibility of a group of grievers taking that power.  The more power you put into the game, the more powerlevelers and grievers will be attracted to it.


The Crooks, from what I understand, is Munkii taking up the position of a comical mastermind supervillain and having an assortment of Henchmen and #2s and the like.  I've got nothing against that.  The tone in his first post did not reflect that clearly enough and so he was pounced on.  You can not deny that had the Crooks been a serious organization, they would need to instill a couple changes.

This misinterpretation lead to people pouncing on the guild, Munkii then explained that it was a comical guild but, by then it had spiraled into one of the many threads based around the posters' pride and inability to admit they were wrong.  This applies to both sides of the argument.

I say give the Crooks a chance.

@Munkii: Have fun but, remember to respect other people's right to Roleplay seriously.
@Sangwa: We've both had to put up with stupid guilds before, I know it's agrivating but, you'll have to watch your tone from now on.  We can't see your smile here, buddy
@Zanzibar: Yes...
@LordRaleigh: Austin Powers...I can see that.  And who knows?
@Underthemoon: That whole first part about guild power, enjoy

[zanzibar]

Now I give you your moment to shine in all of you quote giving glory, Zanzi.

Not only am I good at quoting things, but I'm good at responding to them!  Perhaps discussion with me would be more fruitful if you addressed the content of my posts.

Point out the exact points where constructive criticism was given in -this- thread.

For one, pointing out the constructive criticism in the previous thread.

Lastly, you must be an extrodinary mind reader, as I don't know what Munkii is intending.

Wasn't that my point?

[LARAGORN]

Wasn't that my point?

It is hard to tell, it seems your point is to negate anything constructive or logical.

[zanzibar]

Wasn't that my point?

It is hard to tell, it seems your point is to negate anything constructive or logical.

People are posting such funny things today, I love it.

[Sangwa]

I am the first to admit that 'The Crooks' is a silly guild that will not likely survive long. I am not defending it, but its right to exist. I am also defending it against the pointless nitpicking going on of small details.

Excuse me, where do I say they have no right to exist?

I didn't even bother to read what you said about power. There was the word "n00b", the words "effects on the game" and some other babbling that didn't have anything with the powers guilds are able to have in planeshift.

About the politician part... Vigesimi are the politicians in the game. At least the kind of politicians he was speaking about.

You can go ahead and defend people just because you like to. I have nothing against it. I'll merely stick with stating my points and pointing at how other points might be not as valid. Like I tried to do with my latter succession of quotes.

EDIT TO ADD: Nurahk, it's a lot more fun when they can't see me smiling.

[lordraleigh]

In the character creation, you can define one of your character parents as a Politician(assistant to Vigesimis from the way it's described), Vigesimi or temporary Octarch.

[Sangwa]

At least the kind of politicians he was speaking about.

A Politician - Our representatives in the government, they buy people's votes, bribe local guards, and send threats to opposing parties - although they work separately, they will usually take orders directly from me.

What have your parents to do with a character's role? Can you choose to be an octarch or a vigesimi?

[lordraleigh]

What I meant is that it gives a very specific meaning for what is a "politician" inside the government:

An assistant to a Vigesimi.

*Added to Sangwa: Yeah, the representatives of "Dr. Evil" Munkii playing around as they will never become real politicians

[Sangwa]

Have you read what he said about his Politician concept? I'd quote it for the third time... But I think you'd better read it on the first post. Specially when it says "in the government."

EDIT: (Actually quoted him for the third time, didn't I?)

EDIT TO ADD: Being inside the Government means having a position within. It isn't stated that assistants have actual position within the Government, which allows us to consider they are not inside it, but merely work about it. Besides, mere assistants wouldn't be able to do all the bribing and controlling he wants.

[Munkii]

Edited:

Sangwa, UTM point is, you're also role playing stuff up, and by "role playing" i actually mean "pretending" (that's not my general interpretation of RolePlaying), as much as my guild does, maybe even more really, as i said i've read every piece of document on the PS site and nothing seemed to apply with the kind of claims you're making.

and NO my guild isn't a 'joke' my ranks are real, my policy is real, even my 'goals' are REAL, whether i'll be able to achieve them is another story, adding humour to something doesn't instantly make it a 'joke' - you've got a lot to learn about humour, that goes for parallo and zanzibar too.