Define: Power-leveling?

[Beliy]

I've often seen it stated that PS is not about power-leveling, and that players really ought to find better things to do than mindlessly camp mobs to level. The MOTD often encourages us to "try to complete all of our quests" and "try some crafting", "it is pointless to collect money", "help the government" and such. So I have trained my primary character to a level where he can fight a variety of rogues, dark rogues, and the brigand without dying. So, "good enough", I figure, "lets try some crafting and to complete some quests."

Now I'm finding a variety of quests where I'm asked to make a choice between paying a huge percentage of what tria I have left after recent events or produce ulber parts. So, I figure, let's go play with some ulbers. I march up to one, brandish a pair of 300/300's and start slashing. Damage I am able to inflict upon the beast with my weapon skill? ZERO 
Damage I am able to inflict with my second realm Crystal Way magic? Not much....maybe if I survived long enough, I could take him in an hour or so.

Ah, Crystal Way, there is another matter. I've killed all sorts of mobs to earn the PP and mined seemingly forever to earn the tria to train to a point where I can use some common Crystal glyphs, and thought myself "accomplished." Until, that is, I did some more questing and got this glyph that I had no idea what to do with. Upon asking around, I was told that I would probably need to quadruple my Crystal skills to use it at all.

I am _not_ whining or complaining, mind you. I clearly need to go back to the arena and camp some spawn points to earn more tria and PP to increase my weapon and magic skill,  I've no problem with that.

What I want to know, however, is in view of the anti-power leveling/spawn camping culture here, when will I know that I have crossed the line from "trying to complete some quests" to the cursed power-leveling?

Here is my real point...the Dev's are doing a great job on the game engine, the artists have done a spectacular job on the in-game aesthetics, and the settings team is really doing some great things as of late, my hats off to them _all_ -- but as PS is becoming more stable and may be _only_ a year or so away from that 1.0 milestone, I wonder if more attention ought to be given to the developing 'culture' of the mMorpg, the expectations that the Dev's have for how the players play the game and act in game, and how players relate to one another in game?

Respectfully,
Beliy

[emeraldfool]

It all really comes down to a lack of trade-skills.

Hopefully in the future with things like gem-cutting and leather-working and glass-blowing or even pickpocketing we'll be able to get just as much money and experience without even touching a weapon.


But as long as you take time to engage in some RP and events and the like, you should be able to avoid being labeled a power-leveler.

[neko kyouran]

my thoughts on powerleveling:

As long as you have a goal behind leveling, other than, to max all skills (other than for testing purposes), then that can never be considered powerleveling, no matter how much you level.  If you are constantly levelnig becuase you need to be higher in order to to complete a quest or it's in your character's traits to be constantly working on their body, training, becomming a better soldier for a guard postition or what not, then I don't ever see this as powerleveling, but instead, simply playing the game as it was meant to be played, leveling with a purpose.

It should be that you need to train stats and skills as part of the game to complete quests and what not.  Why else would we even have skills and stats in the first place if they weren't meant to be tarined then?

[lordraleigh]

My opinion on 0-levelling(No levelling at all):

My main character is supposed to developed as skills Ranged Weapons and Lah'ar. I could've trained her dagger and light armor skills just to have enough for maxing her INT and CHA(For obvious RP reasons) but I would rather not develop a skill OOCly that would not fit with her just for the sake of having a way of beating mobs for getting PPs. Same with mining for getting gold. I don't see nothing wrong with that myself, but I'll be glad to test the previously mentioned skills when they come to PS. Or in other words, SOON(TM)

[Ishtar2]

may be _only_ a year or so away from that 1.0 milestone

Pffffffffffft.  The developers are moving as fast as they can, so yes, the game is improving quickly, but the grand scope that Talad has planed makes that idea completely rediculious.  There's supposed to be eight layers of land,  right now, we only have two cities on the first layer.  It might not be done in one lifetime, let alone one year. 

[bilbous]

I think that is a bit of a mistake LR, not because you should not do so but because most archers had some ability to defend themselves when their position got over-run. I am not sure what Lah'ar, a language perhaps but no matter, if it is a defensive skill, my point is pointless. Perhaps you might like to take up melee instead? Many archers have some facility with light armor but nothing says you have to have it and it is very expensive at higher levels.

Laanx help you when the Knights charge down at you, you brave warrior!

[Beliy]

I stand corrected... 
The post I was referring to did,  if fact, state a "few" years away, not one as I said.

Beliy

[lordraleigh]

I think that is a bit of a mistake LR, not because you should not do so but because most archers had some ability to defend themselves when their position got over-run. I am not sure what Lah'ar, a language perhaps but no matter, if it is a defensive skill, my point is pointless. Perhaps you might like to take up melee instead? Many archers have some facility with light armor but nothing says you have to have it and it is very expensive at higher levels.

Laanx help you when the Knights charge down at you, you brave warrior!

Not a warrior duh! 

Annera will be at most a strategist, and rarely engage into combat as it is not her main capability. And about that - Just add "Point Blank Shot" as a special subset skill of Ranged Weapons. About defensive things. You can best the way you wield a shield or weapon, but I'm not sure on how using an armor constantly will magically make it more resistent to damage as you improve your skill on wearing such armor(As if wearing armor was a extremely difficult to learn skill). In my opinion the armors skills(except for shield handling of course) should be taken off for the sake of realism and exchanged to DODGE, PARRY and BLOCK for example, that are much more realistic than a leather armor defensive capability multiplying tenfold from just you being beaten up. Also perhaps she might develop another school of psionics more defensively minded, like Argan.

Just something to add from other area: did the musketeers(from Dumas novel) wear some kind of armor or based their defense fully on dodging, parrying and blocking blows, something that the encumberance of armors would effect?

[emeraldfool]

I agree that armour skills shouldn't increase defence directly, but they should exist. The more you wear a certain type of armour, the more used to it you become, and the easier you can maneuver and compensate for its weight, or learn techniques of caring for it that most people don't know.

No matter how good someone is at dodging, if you stick them in heavy, cumbersome armour that they're not used to, they'll be screwed.



I'm not sure why I'm talking about this though

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Powerleveling-  A concept created by "roleplayers" to generate a sanctimonious feeling about sitting around harnquists playing "make believe." It is generally used as a pjorative to discourage those who actually engage the features of the game.

[lordraleigh]

Powerleveling-  A concept created by "roleplayers" to generate a sanctimonious feeling about sitting around harnquists playing "make believe." It is generally used as a pjorative to discourage those who actually engage the features of the game.

Due to the current pre-alpha state of the game, and due to the obviously unfinished and somewhat faulty features that come from this fact, there's little option besides "playing make believe" if your character isn't supposed to be a miner or a melee weapons fighter. Being a mage is possible, but is a pain in the *** training as one due to the way spells are underpowered in comparison to combat skills. Thus its alpha stage creates a unhealthy division between gameplay and roleplay in PS.

Here is one

Powerleveling - Anyone who stands hours and hours bashing rogues, etc. just to become a "Leet Warrior Dude" and make others "PWN4D" in duels, regarding nothing to roleplay. Or to RP a jerk type of character with fews capable of killing him.

Tester  - Someone that tries a feature as a player with the intention of helping the development(or just of curiousity).

Roleplayer - Someone that spends time developing a consistent history for the characters and contributing to the immersion.

And @Xillix, if this is what the dev team thinks. I guess roleplayers aren't welcome, so I'll send an invitation for all the players of RUNESCAPE to try PS and leave as this game focus on the "features" rather than on Roleplay.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

I speak only for myself in this.

Roleplaying is not only welcomed but encouraged everywhere in ps.

I have made the argument before that a character should be (with their stats) what their role states they are. In cases where this is not possible of course make believe is acceptable. I have however seen far to much critiscism leveled against the people who enjoy leveling their characters. The duelists as well take flak that is undeserved. The game profoundly supports roleplaying and i encourage those people who many roleplayers would call powerlevelers to roleplay as well. We actually enforce roleplay when it is possible through the gms. For you to take what I said as anything but a little joking jab back in defense of the levelers and compare us with runescape is a bit knee-jerk imo.

In time more ways to gain exp will be provided as well as more skills there is nothing wrong with pretending where it is needed to fill in the gaps in developement. I do however find having an attitude toward people who choose not to do this is contrary to a positive community ethic. Npc responsiveness and realism is somewhat limited atm, just like one might "RP" being a great archer, another might take standing in front of a rogue for 12 hours to be the only way to facilitate their character's "having fought many battles to become a hardened warrior." "wax on, wax off, paint the fence, paint the fence." I see little difference between these two kinds of pretending. Except perhaps younger people tend toward the latter. Eventually most people who begin as powerlevelers end as rpers.

Utm for example does not have badassed fighting characters in game, if he did he would actually be able to back it up with his physical statistics. If your player is getting wealthy playing a beggar seems OOC to me. If your character is dumb as a box of rocks int stat should be kept low. etc etc.

I like the leet jerks who raise their characters to hieghts of physical prowess to be able to fight. So long as they are respecful of roleplaying conventions.

I also find PS roleplaying to have some very strange tendencies toward "godmodding" or outright irreverance for conflict with the settings. 
There is all manner of settings material available through speaking with the "stupid" npcs it is all part of the game. All of it is to be tested.

It is just as easy to become a jerk through roleplay as it is to do so by bashing monsters. 

[Seytra]

I agree that one should try to match one's stats to what one RPs. However, I don't think that it is possible to achieve this most of the time, at least in the current state of PS. There are the unimplemented things for one thing, and there also is the problem that even for the implemented things, there still tends to be need to fight. Otherwise, you don't get XP and money nearly as fast to make it even (and things are often being changed as well). Plus, and this is independant of the state PS is in, you usually don't get that much chance to RP what you level.

This is something that makes me wonder if levelling is the correct approach to RP at all. Just consider the ridiculous speed at which people can gain levels if they focus on it. Even if we were going by the insanely fast ingame clock, they go from peasant to master fighter in a few months. They get insanely rich in the process as well. Seriously, this is nowhere near realistic, and therefore it is impossible to RP it. Hence, even if you veil this into some sort of "My char is obsessed with becoming the best warrior" pseudo-RP explanation, it's not RP regardless of how you phrase it.
Thus, either you start pretending that you already are a master warrior right from the CC (with a gross mismatch in lvl vs. RP), or you have to significantly reduce your levelling speed.

IMO, players should have no influence on the levelling speed of their characters, and only get to pick the skills to level.

What makes matters worse is that PL (even if veiled in RP terms) effectively devaluates skill levels. This means that a PL increases the threshold for what must be considered "high level". Someone who RPs "a good warrior" will therefore have to kep on levelling in order to maintain their effective level, even if they never RP an increase in skill.

For all those reasons I view it as mandatory to RP consistently, realistically and believably, but matching stats to the RP is something that can be omitted or at least delayed. I, for one, am not willing to put up with days of grinding just to increase some stat, eg. END, to what I RP, especially not after a wipe. If anything, I do it gradually, when I have nothing better to do because, frankly, for most characters grinding is totally OOC. It has taken me about one year to stat-wise approach what I RP, even though I by far don't RP high levels, and none of the grinding could be done IC.
Of course, if you are not sure about your ability to maintain consistent and reasonable RP, then it is better to use the stats for guidance. However, as stated, the stats themselves can easily lead to and support god-moding (For example, I don't think Ulbernauts can realistically be killed by a lone fighter, and therefore have severe doubts about the RP quality of those who "kill Ulbers for fun").

All in all, PS should significantly reduce the reliance on skills and stats, and instead actually focus on RP (meaning flexibility in what to do and how to do it, extensive interaction with the environment, visuals, etc., not merely hiding information).

[Valorius Rageway]

It all really comes down to a lack of trade-skills.

Hopefully in the future with things like gem-cutting and leather-working and glass-blowing or even pickpocketing we'll be able to get just as much money and experience without even touching a weapon.


But as long as you take time to engage in some RP and events and the like, you should be able to avoid being labeled a power-leveler.

You still have to slay beasts to earn the PP for your craft training, no way around that in the current system.

Powerleveling as it is derisively called, is a neccesity in the PS world if you want to actually take advantage of all the game has to offer. Some great posts in this thread btw. I agree with most all that's been said.

Seytra, Alexander the Great went from an unknown boy to master of most of the known world in a matter of a few short years. Within his first few months of leadership he'd proven himself a master tactician and fierce warrior of great skill. Because he had massive natural talent, and an unmatched desire to succeed.

[Seytra]

Seytra, Alexander the Great went from an unknown boy to master of most of the known world in a matter of a few short years. Within his first few months of leadership he'd proven himself a master tactician and fierce warrior of great skill. Because he had massive natural talent, and an unmatched desire to succeed.

Are you sure that his actual fighting skills were that great? However, even if this is the case, he would have been one in hundreds, even thousands of years. In PS, though, there are hundreds or thousands in one year. Plus, they take only ingame weeks or maybe months, and he took years.