How necessesary is the guild chat tab?

[zhai]

Just wondering... yeah, it has many advantages to have an exclusive guild channel but I've found that, given certain circumstances, it can easily get in the way and disrupt RP.

For example, if there are too many OOC guild messages "spamming" your main tab making you lose track of the actual RP taking place. Or when someone uses the guild chat to exchange IC information with characters who are impossible to reach IC, given their location or physical limitations (being ICly unconscious, drunk or gagged), unless godmodding. I think it's ok to comment but not to actually affect a character's actions with OOC leaks, like "come to the plaza right now! i'm unconscious and being kidnapped!".

It's hard enough to keep IC and OOC separate sometimes and maybe the guild chat isn't helping but doing the exact opposite. What are the alternatives? There are lots of ways to communicate  with guildmates that can be presented IC like emoting, yelling, whispering or speaking in code. In terms of mechanics, /tell or /group can replace the guild chat if privacy is needed  (either for OOC or IC reasons) yet the characters' actions remain IC or at least don't have an easy OOC way to reach other players and exchange info that should remain IC. The IC way usually requires more typing and might be a bit slower but then... what's the rush? I say let's enjoy RP.

Now, I'm not saying it's a bad feature, it offers many advantages. I'd just like to open the discussion: can it be so OOC that it can become a problem or is it a must and the game would be spoiled without it?

I can see good points in both sides but I'd like to hear other opinions.

[Nilrem]

Removing a tab cause it can, is or might be used to contain OOC talk is deemed to fail.
That is, when people share an OOC talk, they do because they want it, not because there's a channel for it, or not.

If you remove the guild chat, those actions you talked about (asking for help to guildmates not being at the sorroundings, as if using an "alert" system that places a red flashing dot on each embedded walkie talkie of the guildmembers) could be done, equally, using other means. Group, for instance. Or a tell. Would not be hard to find your guildmates, maybe they're in your buddy list already, or you'd simply use /who guild_name to find those guildmates that are online. You state this in your exposition, and it's something known by everyone.

At the good side, guild tab is not broadcasted to others (group or tell aren't either) so, if they stay OOC, they're not harming anyone but, if someone, their own guildmates.
And if those guildmates find annoying to have OOC in their guild tab, then it's their task to define how the guild tab should be used for said guild, and why. Sure, those having an OOC talk could move somewhere else (then again group, tell) but if a guild does want to have an OOC clean guild tab, I guess it's only on the guild hands to achieve that.

Another story is what for that tab is used in guilds. To that, I've no answer since I've not ever been in a guild. I'm unaware of how it's used, but yes, it's the easiest path to assume it's mainly used for OOC.

I've personally nothing against OOC talk, as long as it doesn't repeatedly intrude into others play. But this doesn't have to be the case of guild chats, since they're separated from the main one.

The tabs themselves do not annoy me. That is, even if left unused, afterall there would be nothing gained if removed. You also mention they distract you from your own play. Well, if that's for the flashing you can disable its flashing in the options menu, when i game. It might be also that they distract you, because you want to check it.
In that case, I see various reasons:

a) You expect to find there something IC, but are annoyed to see only OOC. This somehow has issues with your assumption, since you've not mentioned any circumstance when the guild chat can be used in an IC fashion perfectly suitable. (Exchanging IC information with characters who are impossible to reach IC is then OOC talk)

b) The ongoing play you're involved at that moment doesn't keep you interested enough, so you switch to "let's see what's said in guildchat" with the hope of finding something better, and get annoyed at finding OOC chat as an alternative.

So, to sum up. Trying to limit the OOC talk presence in game by removing tabs that are prone to be used OOC, is not the solution. Since that would lead with where the chat is placed, and not why it is done. In other words, it would move somewhere else, the main tab in that case, and then really could affect others. It could be discouraged with warnings and all, one might think. Not worth to start such a fight.

Why having a guild chat then? Yeah, I can only think of OOC reasons, but, in the end, benefitial (if correctly handled) for the game atmosphere. Having that guild channel, surely enforces and strenghtens relationship between guild members. Yeah, they do so by OOC means and whatnot, but at least those bounds are stablished. It is then, expectable, that the guild does act as a "united" group, when in game, cause the player feels part of belonguing somewhere.

So... don't remove it.

[zhai]

You're probably right. Removing it might not make people resort less to OOC. My concern however goes to how others' RP is affected by this  and any other channel for giving IC information within a clearly OOC context.

For example, let's say you want to chase someone down. You get a group of people to help you out. You manage to find this character and lure them to a trap. It seems all your work is paying off when they are pinned down by your mates and appearantly subdued. Suddenly, out of nowhere, ten members of your prisoner's guild show up, outnumbering you now. They may say they were around or just looking for this person... they can even say they "sensed" something (because they are super sensitive, I guess). In reality, a "help me, i'm behind the tavern" message was sent through guild/group/tell and IC help showed up without any IC motivation or knowledge of the events. That's a problem. The same goes with the DR "shortcut" and other ways to share information or reach something in particular.

Maybe, if you needed to ask for help and you didn't have a guild tag, you might find it easier to /shout while your character can than having to either send group invites or S.O.S. /tells to all your guildmates. At least shouting would be IC. It would be easier than sending 20, 10 or even 5 /tells, wouldn't it? Then maybe what would have been OOC can be channeled through IC, by making the latter the easiest way available to communicate. Just a thought.

[Nilrem]

They could always start "faking" a guild chat with the group command.

Someone starts the group and goes adding guild members as they joing.
Annoying, you can think. Yes, it is. But feasible. And, deciding "I won't use OOC info in favour of my IC chars/mates" only because the means to do so are annoying, is a fake "victory".

After all, it's a matter of fairness between players. If you do think that said group appeared there due to an OOC claim for help, then your decision is easy. Tell them so, in an OOC way, and refuse to play with those if they don't change their habits. While there has to be respect towards different visions of RP, this doesn't mean you've to tolerate anything for the sake of it. If, in that particular case, that is a key aspect for you, you don't have to cope with it. If you find those "cheating", simply stop playing with them and remove those actions from your RP history.

But then again, this is mainly a matter of player consciousness, more than blaming the game chat tabs. For instance, the same thing can happen when using alts. One can perfectly create an alt, and act IC with that alt personality to gain some information and pass it to another char controlled by the same player maybe forcing a bit things for that to happen. While the action can appear as extremely clean IC behavour, truth is that there's lack of player aesthetics behind it.

Fairness between players it's certainly not a matter of game mechanics, but more like a community one.

I'm of the opinion that "if it allows for some RP then it's OK" kind of behavour might make people appear as cool and tolerant towards other "RP visions", but that, at the long term they do not favour to create any credible world. While there can be, and will always be, diversity in the conception of RP, style and what not, certain basics should not be broken, and even less "tolerated cause, in the end, it lead to some situation that was RPayable".

In the case you mention, it's not a particularly grave situation (certainly not the worst I've seen) but, as said already, there is no need to tolerate that because it leads to some RP. You indeed can RP that they are there now and you're now the outnumbered... but the means to achieve so, if not fair, can perfectly abort the RP.

But then again, each one has to establish his/her own line. Some would be considered too strict, while others too lax. But I think each one has to decide what is acceptable for him/her and what is not.
Some might, for instance, don't see acceptable that people runs away as if left the teapot on the fire at home, giving an "IC excuse" simply cause some player joined and they're going to meet him/her. Even if in this case there would be no objective of outnumber anyone in a fight, or aid a guildmate, the fact is that the char has been moved to a certain location due to an OOC earned information.

It's a player task to decide, then, what to accept, and what to discard as "RP".

[Idoru]

I remember being involved in a couple of RPs in which the group channel was used in exactly the way you described, to get help from people outside of normal hearing range. I dont see alot of difference between this and using guild channel for the same purpose. It shouldnt happen, but it always will.

[pKrime]

So talking with far buddies is OoC!?

I'm a bad bad player, always in telepathic contact with my friends, but I'm a teenager Ywnn, I love chitchatting at telephone!

 

[Idoru]

So talking with far buddies is OoC!?

I'm a bad bad player, always in telepathic contact with my friends, but I'm a teenager Ywnn, I love chitchatting at telephone!

 

you missed the point I think. Its using these channels to effect the outcome of a roleplay that is the concern.

[emeraldfool]

I don't think it would be fair to all the other guilds out there, and all the guilds that are going to be, to take it away. It's fun, if used responsibly.

And again, effecting roleplays OOC could just as easily be done through '/tell's...

[Zan]

I haven't read much of the initial post nor any of the replies but here comes my opinion to the first question anyway.

The guild tab is extremely necessary exactly because it is an OOC tab. It's mere existence reduces OOC spam of the main tab and that alone is enough reason for it to exist.

If you have a problem with guild messages in your main chat tab ... then choose for them not to appear on your main tab, like I do

[Under the moon]

I would like to say I don't like guildchat much at all. I have seen the "I am in trouble <here>" in action far too many times. Corner someone, and suddenly you are surrounded by guild members. Very poor RP all around, yet nothing to do about it but walk away.

As for group being used in the same way, I use a simple solution. Before the RP starts, I require everyone to join a group who plans on being in the RP. OOC talk is allowed, as long as no info is shared about the RP. If it is, RP over for the time.

Now, if I can find a way to get you all in the same guild.... *evil grin*

[zhai]

I guess it's more about how to get and give information though IC channels where the real problem lies. Again, making the difference between IC and OOC is essential yet often neglected. Maybe a list would help...

You shouldn't assume your character knows something:

- Because you can see a name and a guild tag over every character in game.

- Because someone says something in OOC channels like guildchat, /group or /tells with OOC intentions.

- Because you have alts who have access to information your main character doesn't.

Even if you do learn about these things, it should only count if it happens IC, that is if someone uses the main tab to say it or emote it or the other channels IC. One thing I do often, RPing a ranger, is whistle. A whistle can be heard by many though only a few might know its real meaning (explained through a /tell [ ] if the ranger is around to hear it). I just wished people would actually take as much interest in RPing these little things as they do in making money, training or camping. After all, consistency is strong when the details are watched over.

[Zan]

I would like to say I don't like guildchat much at all. I have seen the "I am in trouble <here>" in action far too many times. Corner someone, and suddenly you are surrounded by guild members. Very poor RP all around, yet nothing to do about it but walk away.

That one is a problem but not the Guild chat should be blamed for that .. the poor RP skills are to blame!

However I've also seen the opposite happen .. a guild member of mine was kidnapped and dragged to the sewers where nobody would stumble upon him. Since that person was a very good RPer he stayed magically unconscious and just lied there the whole time. The problem was that the kidnapper logged off and hadn't bothered to include others in his plot. Now while this was very realistic it is not a good way to start an RP in a game-world. Eventually my friend was getting so bored and because he still refused to break from his role and wake up .. I got tired of the poor RP setup and used OOC information to 'stumble upon' my guild member and drag him to a healer.

Just saying that while I generally don't approve of OOC information being used it can be relativated ... this is still a game and sometimes a little initiative needs to be taken if it's not coming from the one leading the RP. There are people who forget that their roleplaying actions affect the game experience for other good roleplayers.

[Under the moon]

Indeed. Cause and effect. Any action you take in the game with other players involved will affect them. this includes the sharing or not sharing of IC and OOC information. A multi-player game can not be treated the same as a single player.