Planeshift as a "Utopia": Why not?

[Valorius Rageway]

'Good' question.

I'm sure Marx, Lenin, and Stalin all asked the same of their advisors....

Their answer was the KGB.

"It is good that the tree of liberty be watered with the blood of patriots and tyrants from time to time"
~T.Jefferson

Marx didn't have advisors - he wrote essays on the philosophy of economics and he spent most of his time in museums.  He never held a position of political office.  Stalin was one of Lenin's advisors, and Stalin wasn't one for asking questions or paying attention to good advice.

All three of them said that conflict was a NECESSARY force for moving society forward.

Virtually everyone who's ever lived has had 'advisors', be it their parents, friends, teachers, or co-workers. Of course Marx had advisors.
Stalin listened to advice often...he was just prone to ignoring it.

Of course that is utterly irrelevant to the point i was making, which is that the only way to 'enforce a utopia' is through violent and oppressive totalitarian rule.

[lordraleigh]

The question is this:  Are realism and freedom good enough reasons to allow conflict in .... society among its citizens?

'Good' question.

I'm sure Marx, Lenin, and Stalin all asked the same of their advisors....

Their answer was the KGB.

"It is good that the tree of liberty be watered with the blood of patriots and tyrants from time to time"
~T.Jefferson

What's more in a world 'based' on the Dark ages where murder and rape were as common as disease and famine, it is utterly ridiculous to even suggest a utopian society. Here, many centuries later there are still no utopian societies.

Why should Yailkum be any different? Answer: It shouldn't.

Totalitarian Government Settings Example

Pretty sure it isn't the base of inspiration for PS Settings on government.

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And "utopias" of are done by  "cleansing" the world of some kind of "evil". The assumption of such being "evil" based on prejudice.

[zanzibar]

Virtually everyone who's ever lived has had 'advisors', be it their parents, friends, teachers, or co-workers. Of course Marx had advisors.
Stalin listened to advice often...he was just prone to ignoring it.

Of course that is utterly irrelevant to the point i was making, which is that the only way to 'enforce a utopia' is through violent and oppressive totalitarian rule.

All three of those people fully embraced conflict and violence as a force for progress.  And no, Marx didn't say that violence should be used as a way to enforce utopia - all he said was that capitalism would ultimately be overthrown by violent uprisings.  All this is irrelevant though.  I'm not suggesting that violence be used to enforce the rules - not in this thread, anyway.

What's more in a world 'based' on the Dark ages where murder and rape were as common as disease and famine, it is utterly ridiculous to even suggest a utopian society. Here, many centuries later there are still no utopian societies.

Why should Yailkum be any different? Answer: It shouldn't.

Are you seriously suggesting that players start RPing rapes?

[Valorius Rageway]

And "utopias" of are done by  "cleansing" the world of some kind of "evil". The assumption of such being "evil" based on prejudice.

Precisely.

There is no such thing as a utopian society. It is an artificial construct enforceable only through wholesale violent oppression. The very fact that Utopia must be "enforced" at all is a clear indicator that as a natural state it will never exist anywhere.

All three of those people fully embraced conflict and violence as a force for progress.  And no, Marx didn't say that violence should be used as a way to enforce utopia - all he said was that capitalism would ultimately be overthrown by violent uprisings.  All this is irrelevant though.  I'm not suggesting that violence be used to enforce the rules - not in this thread, anyway.

All rules must ultimately be enforced by violence, or they're not rules at all.

"All political power comes from the barrel of a gun"

About you implying i am suggesting the RPing of rape, i have to ask is it possible for you to miss a point any more widely than you just did? Or was that just a very lame attempt to gloss over a wholly valid point?

The POINT was that in the timeframe PS is set in was called the "DARK AGES" for a reason. Because it was centuries of raping, pillaging, pestillence, famine, and murder.

The Dark ages were the antithesis of Utopia. People were murdered in the street for no more than looking at someone cross.

Indeed even well into the 19th Century in many 'civilized' societies Honor duels existed, and even with modern technology and police forces violent crime and murder abounds in most "ghetto's" around the world.

Now in an exclusive area like "The winch", you could have a 'gated community' type setting.....but beyond that.....no way.

[Volund]

I'm

only quoting this sentence, but I did read the whole post.  I think there is such a thing as wrong roleplay or bad roleplaying.  With roleplaying, you're supposed to be a certain character within a certain setting.  If you break out of that formula, then I think your roleplaying won't be as good.

Yes, but thats about the individual roleplayers, In general there is nothing wrong with roleplay. From an ooc standpoint. It takes a experienced roleplay to stay in his forumula, but there isnt a guideline for roleplaying, Let it flow bro.

[zanzibar]

You guys aren't talking about true utopias.  You're only talking about failed attempts at utopias.

[lordraleigh]

Are you seriously suggesting that players start RPing rapes?

What @Valorius meant is that the assumption that Planeshift is an utopia is simply absurd.

Stability and "Relative Peace" does not mean Utopia.

There'll be beggars, assassins, rogues, religious conflicts between two opposing faiths that may arise to really violent levels may happen. Raids on shops happen, there are bandits everyore. Corruption and "wet work" exists (See "Political Career Failed").

Not only absurd, but also contradicting the Settings to claim that PS is a 100% peaceful land without misery.

Also, if you really want to play nothing more than hide and seek(In PS unless your character is a kid it's mostly OOC).

CLICK HERE

You guys aren't talking about true utopias.  You're only talking about failed attempts at utopias.

Even to make a real Utopia it would be necessary to make the slaughter of all those who are "evil" and thus dangerous to the Utopia.

[Volund]

The idea of a utopia is just meant to make your populace strive for more. Its a trick used to make your people try to make themselves better. Empires crumble. People die. Cities fall.

[Valorius Rageway]

You guys aren't talking about true utopias.  You're only talking about failed attempts at utopias.

All such attempts must ultimately fail, as "forced equality" is just another word for universal oppression.

 That is the one lesson marxists- and apparently you Zanzibar- truely cannot grasp.

In reality a good chunk of the citizens of Yialkum would openly revolt to prevent you from doing just that, and if crushed, a black market and underground resistance would form regardless as people who believed in freedom in society and the market worked at all times to undermine the totalitarian authority.

PS: i added many comments to my last post to avoid the "double post" scourge that seems to so annoy the denizens of this forum.

[zanzibar]

Even to make a real Utopia it would be necessary to make the slaughter of all those who are "evil" and thus dangerous to the Utopia.

Assumption.

[Volund]

Even to make a real Utopia it would be necessary to make the slaughter of all those who are "evil" and thus dangerous to the Utopia.

Assumption.

People are greedy. They want more and more, they are evil. So a utopia would have to be full of the completely good. Even then they are at risk when tempted with their deepest desires. 

[zanzibar]

All such attempts must ultimately fail, as "forced equality" is just another word for universal oppression.

This too is an assumption - and also a narrow definition of utopia.

That is the one lesson marxists- and apparently you Zanzibar- truely cannot grasp.

You're operating off of a false understanding of Marxism.  Marxism says that capitalism will result in violent uprisings, such as those recently seen in France for instance.

In reality a good chunk of the citizens of Yialkum would openly revolt to prevent you from doing just that, and if crushed, a black market and underground resistance would form regardless as people who believed in freedom in society and the market worked at all times to undermine the totalitarian authority.

PS: i added many comments to my last post to avoid the "double post" scourge that seems to so annoy the denizens of this forum.

The "Free Market" economic model is actually extremely anti-equality and anti-freedom, but that's a different discussion.

People are greedy. They want more and more, they are evil. So a utopia would have to be full of the completely good. Even then they are at risk when tempted with their deepest desires. 

Is human nature universal, absolute, and unchanging?  No.

[Valorius Rageway]

Even to make a real Utopia it would be necessary to make the slaughter of all those who are "evil" and thus dangerous to the Utopia.

Assumption.

Au contraire, history directly supports his(and mine and volund's) position 100%.

In anything that you do about 1/2 the people will always be opposed. What you're describing is 'theoretical communism', and guess what, i'd fight you to my dying breath to stop you IRL or in Yialkum.

It's just the way it is Mr. Rodenberry, let it go already.

[zanzibar]

There has never been a historical utopia, except perhaps a rare number of isolated aboriginal societies.  And even then it's questionable.  So since there has never been a historical utopia, history cannot support his position even slightly.

[Valorius Rageway]

There has never been a historical utopia, except perhaps a rare number of isolated aboriginal societies.  And even then it's questionable.  So since there has never been a historical utopia, history cannot support his position even slightly.

The very absence of such societies is why history absolutely supports our position.