Planeshift as a "Utopia": Why not?

[Volund]

Utopias are non-existant. The perfect society, no rape, no killing, no stealing, no cheating, no lying, humans change but they are as weak to tempation. Even in Roleplay, with guards will have to kil lthose who would jeapordize the utopia, but then the utopia exists on the fact that all must be safe and equal etc. killing the bad ones makes them the killers. Even banishment wouldnt work. It depends on the individual.








Anyway, lets all not forget that    *sees the 7 killer GM's in background*     

[ Excessive smileys removed. Please don't use more than three in a row. --Karyuu ]

[zanzibar]

The very absence of such societies is why history absolutely supports our position.

No, your position is a claim about the nature of utopia.  But the socities you're describing are not utopias - they're merely failed attempts at utopia.  So you can say that there has never been a utopia on record, but it's quite a different matter to prove that utopia is impossible to achieve.  Given the nature of proof, I'd venture to say that it's impossible to prove such a claim.

[bilbous]

Well as Jean-Paul Sartre noted "Hell is other people" and that there is why utopias are a pipe dream.

[zanzibar]

Well as Jean-Paul Sartre noted "Hell is other people" and that there is why utopias are a pipe dream.

Again, I'm not so certain that human nature is universal, unchanging, absolute, etc.

[Volund]

Well, zanzibar we all change but truthfully a part of our old selves is still there.

[zanzibar]

Well, zanzibar we all change but truthfully a part of our old selves is still there.

This statement requires an assumption about "our old selves".

[bilbous]

Well as Jean-Paul Sartre noted "Hell is other people" and that there is why utopias are a pipe dream.

Again, I'm not so certain that human nature is universal, unchanging, absolute, etc.

I do not understand where any of those concepts were present in my quotation, but thank you for illustrating my point.

[zanzibar]

Well as Jean-Paul Sartre noted "Hell is other people" and that there is why utopias are a pipe dream.

Again, I'm not so certain that human nature is universal, unchanging, absolute, etc.

I do not understand where any of those concepts were present in my quotation, but thank you for illustrating my point.

The quote you used suggests that human nature is universal, unchanging, and absolute...

[bilbous]

I disagree. I think it says nothing about human nature. I think is more about communication than anything else. I provided the quote thinking it meant x you read the quote and thought it meant y. It is millions of tiny misunderstanding such as that which lead to conflicts. In order to have a functioning utopia you must have a perfect consensus possible only with a shared consciousness. It is possible that the human race might somehow reach such a state but I would not want to be part of it.

What the quote actually meant probably went to the grave with old Jean-Paul, we both could be wrong.

[drah]

Are you seriously suggesting that players start RPing rapes?

He didn't suggest that at all.  He was just giving an example of several reasons that caused conflict in darker/medieval times.

You guys aren't talking about true utopias.  You're only talking about failed attempts at utopias.

That's because all attempts to make a 'utopia' end up clashing with other people's idea of 'utopia'... isn't it?

Are there any tangible examples of successful Utopias that we could relate to? (You've already answered that one)

As for "assumptions", seeing as though the world of Yliakum is already populated by rogues... it is fair to assume that there is already conflict... and that it would need to be removed or forcefully re-educated somehow to achieve utopia. The current settings and content of Yliakum indicate this too.  Even with just the existence of the labyrinths... a utopian Yliakum doesn't seem plausible.

In a TRUE utopia.. would there even be a need for Tria?

[zanzibar]

In a TRUE utopia.. would there even be a need for Tria?

True.  Dollars work just fine.

[stevenw9]

In a TRUE utopia.. would there even be a need for Tria?

True.  Dollars work just fine.

Actualy that's not true. Money, in its form causes greed and corruption. Removing the thing that causes it the most would actually help relieve that problem. Not only that, but you'd have to remove trade as well by giving everyone everything equally. That would be a piece of a true Utopia.

[drah]

Okay, well...

Yliakum is not a Utopia and I doubt it ever will be... as a true utopia would be one that did not require much of what Yliakum already has (trade,guards,an arena,weapons,currency,alcohol).

Conflict will always exist between characters as there's alcohol, there's greed, there's poverty, there's jealousy, there's misunderstanding and plenty of other reasons to lead to this.   

The main impact removing this conflict (if it were even possible) would cause is to detract from the unpredictability (for better or worse!) from RP.  Personally, I like a bit of unpredictability in RP otherwise things can end up feeling like a bunch of people are predictably narrating a story line (which is fine in parts, but allowing some things to be open to outside influence makes them more interesting). --- PC conflict can sometimes make the difference between acting out a story-line... and playing a role, imo.

[emeraldfool]

Hmm, I think Zanzibar's right.

[zanzibar]

Actualy that's not true. Money, in its form causes greed and corruption. Removing the thing that causes it the most would actually help relieve that problem. Not only that, but you'd have to remove trade as well by giving everyone everything equally. That would be a piece of a true Utopia.

The bigger problem is that the people who control the printing of money get to create wealth for themselves out of nothing.