Author Topic: Bugtracker and its inherently user-unfriendly interface  (Read 5814 times)

stevenw9

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Re: Bugtracker and its inherently user-unfriendly interface
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2007, 06:30:49 pm »
Well large updates would register through the file check system and tell the program, ' Hey, there's either too many files to update or we need to update everything to be sure. ' with a simple variable. That would help full updates that are required rather then just smaller updates that would take hours to finish. x.x' *stabs most free games that don't do full releases often enough*
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ThomPhoenix

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"Improved" restricted bugtracker usage.
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2007, 03:47:12 pm »
I suddenly second this complaint. Why?

For some odd reason we can't comment on bug posts anymore and we can't edit them.
"to prevent misusage".
You can now only edit and comment when you're the assigned developer or the reporter.
Other developers, GMs, bughunters and players won't be able to respond and comment on them anymore.
So yeah, this is really going to make my life as a bughunter easier.
Not.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2007, 03:51:01 pm by ThomPhoenix »
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pedenel

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Re: Bugtracker and its inherently user-unfriendly interface
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2007, 04:03:40 pm »
That's not good ... so if I have additional information that may help shed more light on that particular bug I should start another bug report?

Thought that was what having the comments field (or something similar) in the bugtracker was meant to avoid i.e. posting another report on the same bug to provide additional information.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2007, 08:58:49 pm by pedenel »

jorrit

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Re: Bugtracker and its inherently user-unfriendly interface
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2007, 04:19:55 pm »
That's not good ... so if I have additional information that may held shed more light on that particular bug I should start another bug report?

Thought that was what the intention of having the comments field (or something similar) in the bugtracker was meant to avoid i.e. posting another report on the same bug to provide additional information.

This restriction is temporary until we can find a better solution for bugtracker misuse.

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ThomPhoenix

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Re: Bugtracker and its inherently user-unfriendly interface
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2007, 04:28:17 pm »
Apparently there was someone ravaging the entire bugtracker.
I use the bugtracker every day, a lot, and I haven't noticed that, but hey, I miss things.
So that's why I suggest this:
Use a better and professional system like Trac or BugZilla.
Simply create a new bugtracker and force everyone to make new reports there by locking the old bugtracker.
The old bugtracker will only be used for the bugs that are already there.
If you look at the issues that are 1)open 2)real 3)duplicatable 4)fixable the number of them isn't even that big.
I don't see problems with this strategy.

I see this as the only valid solution as exporting the entire bugtracker would be too much of an issue.
Changing the existing settings of the bugtracker is hard because there are so few options, it's either complete lockdown or complete anarcy, so to speak.
So, a new bugtracker.

Comments please.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2007, 04:30:45 pm by ThomPhoenix »
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acraig

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Re: Bugtracker and its inherently user-unfriendly interface
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2007, 05:02:34 pm »
Apparently there was someone ravaging the entire bugtracker.
I use the bugtracker every day, a lot, and I haven't noticed that, but hey, I miss things.
So that's why I suggest this:
Use a better and professional system like Trac or BugZilla.
Are those php/mysql based?  Can't host scripts or executables on hydlaa.

Quote
Simply create a new bugtracker and force everyone to make new reports there by locking the old bugtracker.
The old bugtracker will only be used for the bugs that are already there.
If you look at the issues that are 1)open 2)real 3)duplicatable 4)fixable the number of them isn't even that big.
I don't see problems with this strategy.
We can't even get people to use a simple php bug tracker correctly. And there is nothing simple about creating a new bugtracker or even installing a current one.  Different php versions/different mysql versions/file permissions/http access/ftp access/uploading core files/ftping over all the code to hydlaa/making sure it works/creating the different users/setting up the email system/assigning permissions/creating the different projects/creating the categories.  It's not a matter of:

$./install_bugtracker.sh 

Quote
So, a new bugtracker.

I'm fine if people want to set up demos of bugtrackers that they can find.  But I won't install each one so people can see if they like it or not.

I changed the permissions on the current bug tracker so that only admins can change it because I was getting complaints from my team about bugs being closed/mislabeled.  In that case that trumps other usage.  Yes we need people to submit bugs but we are the ones that have to try to fix them.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2007, 05:04:39 pm by acraig »
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ThomPhoenix

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Re: Bugtracker and its inherently user-unfriendly interface
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2007, 06:39:20 pm »
Trac
Requirements:
- P-Y-T-H-O-N 2.3 and higher (<--seriously, if you write that without the caps and the "-" the forum freaks out)
- ClearSilver
- SQLite or PostgreSQL, MySQL is currently in experimental phase.
BugZilla
Requirements:
- Perl
- Mysql or PostgresSQL
Mantis
Requirements:
- PHP
- MySQL


There everyone can see what a certain bug reporting tool feels like and how it works.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2007, 12:30:13 am by ThomPhoenix »
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pedenel

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Re: Bugtracker and its inherently user-unfriendly interface
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2007, 09:04:28 pm »
Bugzilla looks more familiar which could lessen familiarisation time and it uses MySQL which is good for this project right?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2007, 10:34:04 pm by pedenel »

acraig

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Re: Bugtracker and its inherently user-unfriendly interface
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2007, 09:26:35 pm »
Again, if hosted on laanx it cannot use a lot of stuff like perl and other scripting languages.  It has to be simple PHP and mysql based.  I will do some tests over the weekend to see exactly what is supported on hydlaa.

Arianna is now looking over the various bug trackers to evalute them.
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ThomPhoenix

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Re: Bugtracker and its inherently user-unfriendly interface
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2007, 11:37:08 pm »
Thanks acraig, I'm sure that we'll now be able to improve on the whole bug-cycle, it will not come to a locked-down bugtracker again :)
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Nurahk

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Re: Bugtracker and its inherently user-unfriendly interface
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2007, 11:53:46 pm »
Hate to throw some oil on this dying fire but,

I remember hearing something about a "testers" category.  Would they have the ability to comment and edit bugs?

pedenel

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Re: Bugtracker and its inherently user-unfriendly interface
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2007, 10:37:44 am »
Personally, I don't see why testers should be allowed to edit a bug report created by others or comments made by other testers.  Their own reports/comments should be capable of being edited though.

It has always bothered me that testers can change the status of a bug on PS's bugtracker as I've always regarded this as being something only the Dev team should be able to do.

A tester wishing to re-open a closed bug should create a new bug and link to the previous bug report by inserting the old bug number.


AryHann

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Re: Bugtracker and its inherently user-unfriendly interface
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2007, 04:16:22 pm »
I would post a general post to all the observations that have been made in this thread.

First of all, I agree that this bugtracker is not the best tool of its kind that there is on the market. I think that its use is simple and straigthforward but the research function should be better, in order to make life easier to everybody. It would be good if it would be more customizable and also, from the admin side, to obtain different groups with different "attributes". However, this is not possible in the bugtracker today, and this is surely a limitation. Categorizing the bug should be easier and more intituive, but it is also true that not all players have the technical knowledge to know if a bug is client or server and at the moment, that hasn't been a huge problem for us, developers. This is basically what Ralleyon has said as well.

However, the main problem, which we would encounter with whatever bugtracker there is around, is how people use it.
That is why I have been putting my time in trying to create a so call "bug tracker process", as acraig stated, that should be a guide on how to use the bugtracker, for each "roles" available, and represent an unequivocable tool for following the life of a bug report.
Still, the problem is in enforcing this "life path" of the bug report. There will be always people that act indipendently and, we will try to contain that.
I would love to get this document ready as soon as possible, but I have a pending release at work, and this has caused me to have really little time for everything (I have to work overtime for the whole week, until absurd hours). However, I will try to do my best to finish it as quickly as possible. This document will try to include also a description on how to use the different fields, with the hope that everybody will notice how the bug report is changed (for example, with the "fixed in version Xxx" thingy) . It is also hard to enforce everybody to write a comment when they modify the bug report... (the bugtracker I use at work actually do that, but we don't have a really customizable tool here :-), not sure about the other proposed).

For Nurahk, I think that people *can* actually edit the summaries. So, that should be no issue, today. If you look in the bug report there is a field called "Summary". I think everybody can edit that but I am not sure, since I am admin of the bugtracker ;-)

For stevenw9, we had the updater for that purpose, but it didn't work fully perfectly so at the moment (as far as I know) we are skipping its usage. However, acraig has replied perfectly on why, in a kind of development as ours, it is hard to have a system like you describe. Vengeance's inventory is not completed (still in development) however it is committed in CVS ;-)

Now, about the *big* polemic.
First of all, if you feel that your role is the one of a bug hunter, in my opinion, you are not a "bug tracker janitor". You find bugs, you report them, you annotate which one are most important, you verify that a fix is actually a fix (and not a new bug), eventually you perform regression tests to see what else is broken and so on.
We have plenty of cases of bug reports closed too hastily, comments that are really not understandable, misplaced and people entering a "conversation" in a bug report not just to confirm the bug, bug to add new bug reports (write a new one then), and so on and so forth. Of course, closing the bugtracker was a temporary solution (even if, not everybody in the team actually was thinking of it as temporary - and it was not me  >:().  I remember many many times in different "hobby oriented" projects where the people got fed up of complaints, of things not working as they should and so, and they just remove the service. Why? Because it is a privilege to have that service and not a right.
You want to cooperate? Then, observe how the *janitor* is working on the bugtracker, ask questions if you have doubts, have a dialogue and not ironic harsh comments every 5 seconds on the operate of the janitor. I have honestly (and I will alway) try to be pedagogic in each bug report that is "misplaced" or whenever a bug should have not be closed I always explain why. In the worse cases, I have tried to speak (with calm, if I could) with the interest person, pointing out *why* and *how* this should be done in a different why. However, somebody doesn't obviously like to get suggestions, since they ignore them :-)
And considering myself the "janitor", for the efforts that I put in the tool and in the process, I feel entitled to try to stear the process toward the right one.

I use the bugtracker every day too, and the latest weeks I found it really time consuming. I like to be the janitor (if you want to call it like that) and I would rather keep the task for myself, because I do have quite good experience with similar systems and I enjoy doing the task. And yes, I have been having really little time to complete my "bug process" and if instead of teaching how to use the bugtracker I would be listened a bit more, I would probably have more chances to conclude the document  :thumbup:

The misuse is not just due to the limitations of the system, but rather to *how* the people use it. So we are back on the first words of this long long post.

About new tools. I have been looking at BugZilla and it looks fine. However, it will force us to run the system not where it is today, which is not the most preferred choice we have. Since we don't feel force anyway, to change bug tracker (but rather, the usage of it), maybe it is better to hunt for the "most preferred" choice (which would be compliant with the requests made by acraig).

I could write more, but I have honestly not the right amount of time to bore everybody with this monologue, so I will keep it short now.

Please, do not put me on a stake, just for the sake of doing it, because locking the bugtracker hasn't been my decision (even though I didn't disagree), and surely, it hasn't been my fault.
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Karyuu

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Re: Bugtracker and its inherently user-unfriendly interface
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2007, 09:22:24 pm »
Arianna has been doing an awesome job with the BT lately, and she's more than capable of turning it around from what it once was (a confusing dump of various problems) to a very useful tool. I wouldn't doubt her for an instant Consider her the moderator of the BugTracker - just as you wouldn't want to misuse the forum because there are people (me and Neko) watching you, so you should be careful with what you do on the BT, because Ary knows what she's doing.

Taking care of game bugs should be as smooth of a process as possible for the developers, so if they have to spend more time than necessary cleaning up after people's bug reports, they get much less done. The documentation Arianna is writing will be a big help for everyone, luckily.
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Re: Bugtracker and its inherently user-unfriendly interface
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2007, 12:14:04 am »
Any chance of a bug-wiki?