Alot of things

[bilbous]

I made 50k gold killing glads and rogues over the last couple nights I guess you just have bad luck with the npc-client.

[drah]

Well... I agree on some things..

People should get more experience from mining... and even get some when they miss... they should be able to "learn from their mistakes".

The dueling system changes were unwelcome for many and a list containing quite a lot of players opposing it was posted. (Though I admit many people have got used to the changes since so the complaints have pretty much disappeared... not that the complaints had much effect.)

Also, regarding the 250k-capped-tria-wipe... It did suck... but wipes are inevitable, so, there's really no point worrying about it, it's also not going to effect newer players.  I'll be laughing on the day they say the stats are getting wiped... I can imagine some people are going to freak out.

[Induane]

I haven't seen a single new valid complaint in this thread.

I've seen a few that I at least agree with.  Simply because any one person (such as yourself in this case) doesn't perceive any of the points here to be valid doesn't mean that some aren't relevant or valid, besides a complaint is a complaint and it was made in the correct forum board.  I worry that you perhaps are entering into a bit of burnout sometimes since as a forum mod its easy to become more and more defensive over time.  It happens, and I'm not saying you are actually burned out or a bad mod but you seem a bit more defensive of late, or at last in this particular case, so I worry about that happening to the mods.

* Induane quickly turns to his new "sarcastic" tone and proceeds:

People should get more experience from mining... and even get some when they miss... they should be able to "learn from their mistakes".

ZOMG A GOOD POINT!  Hey look I found a valid complaint! Can't believe I almost missed it in the 10 seconds I spent scanning this page....

</sarcasm>

It actually is a good point.  Some people don't want to have to kill monsters just for PP's and it wouldn't be hard to balance it up a bit so miners could actually get useful amounts of PP's from practicing.  Can't say there are no valid points in this thread because its definitely  too subjective to opinion to say with certainty.   There could be complaints here (maybe all of them) that the devs are planning on ignoring or fixing I guess - but if they were planning on fixing any of that wouldn't that mean it was considered a "valid complaint?"

[bilbous]

It may be a good point but it isn't exactly new is it?

[Induane]

That wasn't my point.  Either way it IS the complaint department.  Complaining about complaints seems well.... stupid to me.  He came to complain... he complained.... the end.

[Narure]

where else do you complain about complaints other than the complaint department? More srict rules need to be worked out for this forum section me thinks.

[Karyuu]

Simply because any one person (such as yourself in this case) doesn't perceive any of the points here to be valid doesn't mean that some aren't relevant or valid, besides a complaint is a complaint and it was made in the correct forum board.

I didn't say that no complaints were valid - I said that they weren't new, and they weren't worded in an inoffensive way, no matter what the original poster was trying. I was insulted when I was, evidently, asked to "stop messing up the game" as a dev. Yeah, we mess up and there are bugs. But how fair is it to talk to the dev team like we're ruining the game by building it. And it's not just an isolated incident. I got an email a couple of days ago asking why a dev is interfering with RP by resetting the server, as if we do it arbitrarily to piss people off.

I worry that you perhaps are entering into a bit of burnout sometimes since as a forum mod its easy to become more and more defensive over time. It happens, and I'm not saying you are actually burned out or a bad mod but you seem a bit more defensive of late, or at last in this particular case, so I worry about that happening to the mods.

I'm defensive because I'm running into all sorts of pokes in the side lately, and ignoring all the wrongs that people say is very hard for me, especially as the number of them grows in time. I will take your comment as a request to cool down some. But, I don't see myself as any more defensive than "usual" in this case. When I'm being criticized for something I'm not doing, I feel the need to respond.

[Induane]

I didn't say that no complaints were valid - I said that they weren't new, and they weren't worded in an inoffensive way, no matter what the original poster was trying.

Thats true I did miss the word new there.  What I'd like to know though is if there is an acceptable time to wait to complain about something thats been complained about before?  People are always coming and going, new people haven't taken part in the discussions of old times, so old points get brought up over and over because there are new people to discuss it, or a different parallax on the same complaint.  If we were only allowed to discuss any one topic just once, the forums would die of inactivity.

was insulted when I was, evidently, asked to "stop messing up the game" as a dev. Yeah, we mess up and there are bugs. But how fair is it to talk to the dev team like we're ruining the game by building it. And it's not just an isolated incident. I got an email a couple of days ago asking why a dev is interfering with RP by resetting the server, as if we do it arbitrarily to piss people off.

I kind of figured that was pretty commonplace as a forum mod and dev - in fact I'm sort of surprised that you don't get complaint emails and messages on a daily basis, simply because of your job.  I'm not saying you SHOULD, I'm just saying that given your position it is inevitable.  It happens, will always happen, and not much can be done about it.  Ahh the lives we choose!  I think its hard to not take things personally sometimes, especially given any particular sensitive mood.  I run into that from time to time too, its only human, but try to keep perspective.  You're a good moderator, one of the more level around that we've had, and I wouldn't want that go go south.

When I'm being criticized for something I'm not doing, I feel the need to respond.

The TEAM you are a PART of is being criticized in your opinion unfairly.   Either way though I don't think it is the job of a mod to engage in defensive arguments about their activities.  If its directed at you personally thats obviously something to be delt with using your forum mod powers and continued in personal messages.  In this case though I think the complaints were more generalized and you took them personally because you felt that an attack on your team was an attack on you (I could be wrong, maybe you didn't take it as personally as you seemed to).  Either way it just doesn't seem like its that big of a deal to get worked up over.  Heck most of the time I feel that the management of PlaneShift is totally inept, and anti innovation, with a desire to crush any attempts at building features or getting team members dedicated purely to the community in any way shape or form.  It seems like community involvement is actually discouraged and even crushed on purpose.  Maybe that isn't the case, but its how I personally feel most of the time.   But me feeling that way is in no way a personal attack on members of the team its just a general complaint see?  Sometimes you have to look beyond words to motive and realize that people just say stuff, and its no big deal.

I will take your comment as a request to cool down some.

No, its a request to relax, don't worry, and be happy! Belonging to a project like this should be enjoyable and fun.  Getting too wrapped up in semantics and taking things like this personally takes the fun out of it, and that should never happen.

Don't let it.  Life's too short to be upset about a complaint like this.

[Karyuu]

Thanks Induane Sometimes we need to hear things we don't want to, too.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

I think perhaps the tone of players has altered a bit for the worse and dev pushback has increased in accordance. I do not see much wrong with many of the wishes expressed here except the idea that we should stop messing with the game. So much has changed for the better in the last months and I see very little reciprocity in terms of praise for what has been altered for the better. It is a strategy of successful critique to acknowledge what is good first. We are people so complainers need to learn to "work it" a little better. Only two instances come to mind when thinking of people getting banned and even then it is not such a big deal. Part of moderating is making subjective descisions about what is acceptable. Karyuu has always defended the devs, i remember arguments i had that karyuu was involved in, the tone was precisely the same iirc. I do think MY tone has changed but Karyuu is was and will be a saint in the forums. 

[zanzibar]

The problem is a small number of juvenile individuals who feel they are owed everything all at once and they think they have the right to become indignant and abusive if not immediately appeased on every point.  These people are impossible to reason with and annoying as hell.

That's what the problem is.

[Induane]

Yeah.  When some jerk decides to whine about something everyone already knows about, it annoys people.

Bah, I say let it go Sometimes people just need to vent.  I agree though it gets annoying sometimes - I just don't feel the need to post back in that case.  I just let the thread die.

* zanzibar claps slowly, showing that he's unimpressed with Induane's remark.

I'm not sure how to say this, but wtfduh.  Of course something isn't necessarily wrong just because one person disagrees with it.  That's why in discourse we back up our opinions with facts.  So talk about the facts.

lol sorry I couldn't wow you with my utterly astounding intellect there Zanzibar   I was just arguing against a general dismissive nature.  Wasn't meant to wow you   Anyways obviously its a duh, but sometimes even that is easy to overlook given the wrong perspective of a moment.  Happens to me all the time at least, and sometimes I have to stop and think about what I'm about to do because I'm looking at something from too much of an emotional angle. Maybe its just me that sometimes forgets this.

Not only is it a good point, but it's been made 237 times already.

Yea yea I got it - we're all tired of talking about that one - it was just an example.  Anyways if you're bored talking about it its pretty simple to just not talk about it at all and let newcomers complain about the same things we were 3 years ago.  Seems normal to me that it would happen. 

I don't think everyone is as boring and uncreative as that.  If it was really true that nothing needs talking about, then perhaps the talking should stop and the devs should be left to work in peace.

Some are sure, but still, a new person can't be expected to not bring up something others have - search in the forums only works so well.  Besides, its better than resurecting 3 year old threads.

Quote from: Induane on April 11, 2007, 10:07:33 AM
Heck most of the time I feel that the management of PlaneShift is totally inept, and anti innovation, with a desire to crush any attempts at building features or getting team members dedicated purely to the community in any way shape or form.
You might want to get that checked out.  Anyway, your feelings and opinions don't carry any weight if they aren't backed up by the facts.

You might have missed the point there - sure it was a bit of a poke at the ps team - I always do that   I was intending it more though to illustrate a different point.  My opinions about PS's dev team are in no way intended as a personal attack at Karyuu or anyone else.  They are just an opinion, some of it a gut feeling.  It wasn't here to change someones mind, or convince anyone I'm right about it.  I just meant that those sorts of generalities shouldn't be taken personally.  Nothing more.

I think perhaps the tone of players has altered a bit for the worse and dev pushback has increased in accordance. I do not see much wrong with many of the wishes expressed here except the idea that we should stop messing with the game. So much has changed for the better in the last months and I see very little reciprocity in terms of praise for what has been altered for the better. It is a strategy of successful critique to acknowledge what is good first. We are people so complainers need to learn to "work it" a little better. Only two instances come to mind when thinking of people getting banned and even then it is not such a big deal. Part of moderating is making subjective descisions about what is acceptable. Karyuu has always defended the devs, i remember arguments i had that karyuu was involved in, the tone was precisely the same iirc. I do think MY tone has changed but Karyuu is was and will be a saint in the forums.

Perhaps its just my perception in this case.  Somehow though I sensed thought that Karyuu was somewhat hurt by the comments (I'm probably wrong) and just wanted to ease things up a bit.

The problem is a small number of juvenile individuals who feel they are owed everything all at once and they think they have the right to become indignant and abusive if not immediately appeased on every point.  These people are impossible to reason with and annoying as hell.

That's what the problem is.

There are always those people.  I prefer not to feed the trolls with more arguments though.  I see it, I read it, I go on ignoring it. 

I say.. let it beeee let it beee!!

* Induane hums a few more bars and bows out before the tomatoes start flying!

[Rayken]

When your'e at someone else's house for dinner, and you think that their lasagna needs a few improvements, you should be able to tell them, but you should be damn sure that your tone is respectful and that you're being careful with their feelings.     Most people will accept constructive criticism, but will stop listening immediately if the first thing they hear is insulting.

[zanzibar]

When your'e at someone else's house for dinner, and you think that their lasagna needs a few improvements, you should be able to tell them, but you should be damn sure that your tone is respectful and that you're being careful with their feelings.     Most people will accept constructive criticism, but will stop listening immediately if the first thing they hear is insulting.

Right.  Need to vent?  Make a livejournal.

[Karyuu]

If people here wish for moderation on such behavior, it's going to have to be done on both sides - not only will those replying to complaints need to be nice, but those making the complaints will have to do so nicely as well.

Is this what the majority of people here want, or is a mostly-free-for-all-vent more appealing? Myself, I wouldn't find it fair to say "Be respectful when replying, but you don't have to be when complaining."