Imperial Ground ? - What the heck .....

[Garile]

This evening my father collapsed and was unconsious for a while. Medics said it was probably becuase of dehydration. Seeing my father laying on the floor of the hall ....

And this is what I am reading up on now. *shakes head* 

[Sangwa]

We have picked a guild hall like we've seen guilds doing for quite a while. You are right to be wondering about it, and I do to. However we should make the scope larger, since what we have done isn't really just our doing alone. It's the doing of a part of the community. So that's what should be targeted.

We don't mind if anyone chooses to defy the Empire and claim that zone. It might even be interesting. But first I'd advise you to ask a Game Master if we're allowed to claim that space as our own. If the answer is yes, then do proceed to your plotting, while considering that you would be the ones seen as criminals. If the answer is no, then tell me about it. I'll try to negotiate something with the Game Masters and we'll surely find a nice place for ourselves somewhere else. We will, however, demand that the same kind of justice be applied to every other guild that has chosen a guild hall as well.

EDIT: Changed first paragraph's start.

[Idoru]

This evening my father collapsed and was unconsious for a while. Medics said it was probably becuase of dehydration. Seeing my father laying on the floor of the hall ....

And this is what I am reading up on now. *shakes head* 

I know I shouldnt say this, but crap happens in all our lives. you have my sympathy, but life goes on, for all of us. we all have our little things to complain about and we will. your father collapsed, several thousand people have died while I type this post. Life Sucks.

I want to reaffirm my sympathy for you.

[ Edited for language. --Karyuu ]

[ Sorry --Idoru ]

[zhai]

I don't particularly support personal rants and we all know it's not allowed to go on the forums and complain about what <enter name here> did or said in-game. That solves nothing. But I can see an honest concern behind the thread.

Had any of my characters been approached like that in the middle of the street, it would've triggered my "godmodder alert". Fine, you can say you rent a place here or there. I don't care. Many characters and guilds do that and it's ok. But if my character is walking down the street and, since most buildings are not even accessible, IC she would be on the street, not anywhere but the street, and someone came along and said they owned the place, I'd consider it IC madness or poor RP. IC, it's the street. You can't rent streets, as far as I know. That is godmodding and I would have little patience with such an approach, whatever the guild tag or player it was coming from, both IC and OOC. But that's me.

@Narure: I think you made very good points in this thread.

[lordraleigh]

The advantages of working indoors(And use forums or /group to RP it) and not having a turf are very good.

Adding to what @zhai said.

I RP having a medium-sized building as a "guild" house, but this does not give my character and the other "guild" members the right to claim the streets around it as theirs. And the members of it wouldn't vote for approving such thing anyway, as it would contradict the principle of "Freedom" from the organization as well, asides from being godmodding, as it interferes with other characters and will inevitably be questioned.

And taking a territory as a turf and threatening those who enter on it is more typical to gangs and criminal organizations as well.

Am I the only one noticing a certain bias around here?

----

Added: What about possible legal consequences of threatening to kill someone for entering in a "turf"?

[Zan]

Actually it is not a street but a small courtyard in between buildings and the Empire doesn't claim it as their own, since it is shared. They simply want to control who goes in or out in an RP sense. The Empire has quite a few enemies and it is only normal that they don't just allow anyone into a place where most of their vital members are stationed. Strangers with no reason to be there are treated with distrust and are preferably kept outside.

This is all roleplaying and it provides oppertunities. People are allowed inside if the Empire trusts them ... other people are still free to try and sneak past Guards. I've had an assassin sneak past me and almost kill me when I turned my back to him in there. Because I was so used to random non-RPers wandering in and ignoring them as soon as possible I thought this was one of them again so I was not on guard and expecting an RP. (bad roleplay on my part).

This is not about players having a feeling that the Empire is claiming areas that aren't theirs, nor about players being denied access to anything, anything at all that matters. Trust me, there is nothing at all to see in there .. except the Empire and the other guilds that are set up there.

All of this is said before so I'm going to stop replying here now ... everything has been said about this silly topic. Some people will just keep refusing to see the positive aspects for roleplay and feel wronged as a player .. sucks for them.

[zanzibar]

Someone enters an area you've claimed.  Do you:

a) Glare at him coldly.






b) Say hello and ask if you can help him.







c) Exclaim "OMG I KILL YOU NOW!!1eleven" because player-killing is the only reason you play the game.  Be sure to call him a "coward" in /shout if he declines your challenge.

[Garon]

Someone enters an area you've claimed.  Do you:

a) Glare at him coldly.

b) Say hello and ask if you can help him.

One of those would make sense in rp, depending on what claim you have to it, your character's normal temperament, and related things.  Or you might threaten to kill him if he doesn't have business there, which is different from c).

From what I know of the DE, it'd probably be a) if it was someone they didn't like, b) if it was just some random passerby (asking if they have an appointment), and the third one (not c, my third one) if they were an enemy of the DE or had otherwise gained the DE's distrust.  But then, I don't know loads about it.

[Sangwa]

Death threats, DE's position and such are things to be discussed in game. Someone could think that you're trying to shape people's perspective in an Out Of Character way. Which would be proof of a certain lack of capability to distinguish in character and out of character. Which would point towards an infantile way of playing this game.

Again, if you're bothered by our right to claim something as our own, please use the Game Masters. That's why they're here, to keep order in Out Of Character issues we can not control ourselves. Ranting and being frustrated about things but not actually doing something smart about them is both childish and useless.

[zhai]

Actually it is not a street but a small courtyard in between buildings and the Empire doesn't claim it as their own, since it is shared. They simply want to control who goes in or out in an RP sense. The Empire has quite a few enemies and it is only normal that they don't just allow anyone into a place where most of their vital members are stationed. Strangers with no reason to be there are treated with distrust and are preferably kept outside.

It's still the street. Closing up an alley and calling it your own is still at least borderline godmodding. You might want to rethink that.

This is all roleplaying and it provides oppertunities. People are allowed inside if the Empire trusts them ... other people are still free to try and sneak past Guards. I've had an assassin sneak past me and almost kill me when I turned my back to him in there. Because I was so used to random non-RPers wandering in and ignoring them as soon as possible I thought this was one of them again so I was not on guard and expecting an RP. (bad roleplay on my part).

I hope you and your guild are ready to face the IC consequences of this. If you want to give a RP opportunity you should let ppl know that they can get involved with it somehow in the first place. For example:

Zhai walks down the street eating an apple.
Empire guy says: [btw, there's a gate by my right that leads into the building. it's half-way open and you can see there's a big cake inside]
Zhai mutters "Yummm... cake"

Now I got a reason to sneak in and get involved with your RP. My reaction could've been "Zhai shrugs and keeps walking". The choice is still mine and if I try to enter your RP space I should be ready for the consequences, like getting beaten up.

This is not about players having a feeling that the Empire is claiming areas that aren't theirs, nor about players being denied access to anything, anything at all that matters. Trust me, there is nothing at all to see in there .. except the Empire and the other guilds that are set up there.

You seem to be missing a point here: it is not about sightseeing around hydlaa. It's about the godmodding behind the fact that you can call a street your own and therefore forcing everyone around the area to see that space as yours. I know some tenants in that very same spot of town. Some have been RPing it for a while now. Were you going to act the same way if you'd bump into them walking up to their place? Imposing your RP on others is still a form of godmodding.

Well, I still think this topic does bring up some good points once we look past the ranting and we can all learn from it. Our RP is also work in progress and we gotta be flexible.


Edit: Tweaked some parts after morning coffee. Same arguments tho.

[Sangwa]

Again, I'll have to point you towards the fact that neither you or me will be the ones deciding if it's right for us to claim that space as rented by the Empire. I know it is great to give your opinion about things, specially when it sounds smart, but is pointless when you are not achieving anything with it.
 
We don't consider this godmodding for the simple fact that it doesn't conflict with people in any unrealistic way. It's not like we can use that thing to control people's minds, or to possess anyone. If there are other people around that place, and if they say they own some buildings around, we would still be good about it. They'd be our neighbors, like the Survivors of Vaern are.
I'll repeat that we're glad to face the In Character consequences of everything. Just be sure that we'll consider the building as rented, and legally ours. If you don't agree speak to a Game Master, as we will do.
About threatening people of death and protecting the part in front of our building, well you guys should roleplay your frustration about it. Ask a guard (GM participation would be nice) about it, know your rights. Maybe we will even be fined for not allowing people access for something that maybe is public.

It's not hard to things in the right way. All you need is common sense and patience.

[Nurahk]

I hope you and your guild are ready to face the IC consequences of this. If you want to give a RP opportunity you should let ppl know that they can get involved with it somehow in the first place. For example:

Zhai walks down the street eating an apple.
Empire guy says: [btw, there's a gate by my right that leads into the building. it's half-way open and you can see there's a big cake inside]
Zhai mutters "Yummm... cake"

Now I got a reason to sneak in and get involved with your RP. My reaction could've been "Zhai shrugs and keeps walking". The choice is still mine and if I try to enter your RP space I should be ready for the consequences, like getting beaten up.

Tsk tsk, replying IC to something OOC, Zhai, you should know better.

The main problem, as far as I can see (putting aside the fact that half the forum posters are whiners  ) is that we used the term "Imperial Grounds".  I can see why people don't like that but, it's just a misunderstanding.  When you hear Imperial grounds you think that the Empire owns a plot of land inside the city (which isn't completely unbelievable) and so you, quite rightfully so at this time, call it godmodding.  This fits into a wide spread problem of people not being able to understand that there are IC lies and exagerations.  The house is rented, that much everybody agrees with.  The land outside the house is guarded, if you can't understand this...yeah  .  The term "Imperial Ground" was used IC, it is in no way an OOC claim.  It's a piece of land that we keep people out of so we can conduct business, if the guard was alerted we could easily deny it and, seeing as you can not possibly bring forth proof, the guard would dismiss it.

In summary
IC - Imperial Ground.
OOC - Piece of Hydlaa that the Empire keeps people out of.

This is again, a common occurence of people being unable to distinguish IC from OOC.

Now, unless you plan on arguing that people shouldn't strongarm others and that everybody should be nice and happy...I think this discussion is done.

[zanzibar]

The problem is that this sort of godmoding can be disruptive to the game for others and the guild member involved was not sensisitve to this.

[ThomPhoenix]

Wasn't it said like 100 times that that part was dealt with?
Don't bring it back up again

[Narure]

Zanzi could probably argue it better