I want your thoughts.

[Gharan]

While playing PlaneShift, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players.

I personally think the only part of the Rules of Conduct the topic would apply to is unwanted attention, but i'm pretty sure whoever written it didn't even have in the back of there mind the issue of leading a stray rogue from it's usual spot by a player, only to eventually kill another player who didn't see it coming. I think it was written to apply to a host of different situations which would be deemed as far more serious.

I personally don't see any issue in what he/she done, the unwilling crafter lost alot of hard work (and his life) but this could be deemed as RP in my opinion. I said earlier in the thread and i'll say it again. Must we make players aware OOC on every single thing we plan to do IC, be it evil or not? (and I don't mean everything, there are certain RP's which definitely warrant a heads up)

[Narure]

I think we should have a 'click the button' game for anyone that just crafts or kills. You'd soon see that the people who whine about this would be gone.

[Idoru]

As I eluded to in my last post. Can anybody really claim that they havent broken any of those rules?

None of you have ever tried to get something for less than its reasonably worth to another player? Defraud
I doubt many of us have tried to harass anyone tbh.
Threaten? I recently threatened to kill a charcter in game because they had swords drawn at a friend.
Distress? I think that on its own is pretty impossible, only caused through one of the other situations.
Give unwanted attention? Im sure everyone has had someone try to RP with them when they are really needing to be somewhere else, that would count, it doesnt say persistent unwanted attention.

That is why I agree with Gharan on this point. The rules are vague, maybe purposely so, possibly to stop people digging into them and saying 'I was banned but didnt technically break any rules'.

[Hanix]

I am shocked at this thread to be honest. it gives a good insight into what alot of you class as RP and OOC.. Personaly i dont see how taking a rogue leading it around an asault course of houses and lamp posts and god knows what els, in the attempt to lead it upstairs to the crafters could ever in any way be classed as RP.

As for the rules, they are there for a reason. there ARE meant to be adhered to. and effecting someones crafting who has NOTHING to do with your RP is breaking those rules however you look at it. You are interfering with THIER game play. End of!

edit:-
{I should also say here that I am talking from a players perspective and not a GM. As a GM i am bound by rules and guidlines laid out by my peers, and as such i know this is a grey area. i guess what i am trying to say is. I know what side i would be on.}

[Gharan]

Nope, I certainly wouldn't class it as a well thought out RP in the slightest. But I could sit and think of 100 reasons before carrying it out to validate it into an RP.
I certainly wouldn't class it as causing another player distress.

Anyway this thread seems pointless to me, all you seem to have done is further your own beliefs that what he did was some kind of major wrong and at the same time haven't seen anybody answer the questions others have raised because they differ from your own.

You are interfering with THIER game play. End of!

That furthers my belief that the GM's have already reached there conclusion.

[Narure]

Surely if all the mobs are taken in the arena all of the players there are interfering with my play?

[Jackdaw]

Trying to get back to the original question. I'm trying to leave out the doubt I had that someone had made only 2 or 3 trips to the mine, had spent hours digging and then had all days worth of work disappear. But that's just me.

Is the question one of intent?

Was there a player one that intentionally led the rogue to Trasok's with the idea of killing a crafter or is that just suppossed?

If I'm running fom a rogue and dissapear over that horizon and then the rogue drifts on and kills someone am I interfering with that individual? It would seem to me that under a strict definition of the rules that it if I am unable to deal with an NPC and that NPC goes on to interfere with someone then I could be seen as guilty of violation of those rules.

So back to the question, if I am player one then am I guilty or innocent if the crafter dies based on my intent? In one scenario he has been interfered with and in the second scenario he is a victim of fate.

[Narure]

If someone hurtles into a work shop and back out again in real life the crafter would look whats going on. Now if in real life i were to trick a maniac who just kills the first person he sees, a la the rogues, into following me into a crowed place purely because i felt like creating havoc that is possible no? If so it is an understandable RP. So maybe the crafters would be helped if there was sound so if a rouge does come in grunting and roaring they would be aware but I think by no means should 'player 1' be punished because the crafters in a town full of rogues cant keep an eye out for such incedents. The real question that should be asked is WHY is oja so over run and WHY would anyone in their right mind build a public forge in such an insecure location? I'm sure if people used a blacksmithy in the hyldaa there would be alot less of such incedents.

[zanzibar]

This might be a good time to remind you of this from.
 Rules of Conduct

While playing PlaneShift, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players.

Good advice for everyone to remember.

[lordraleigh]

For me enforcing this rule for legitimate IC actions with decent Roleplay(Not for This Case as Factors Like Guards, Trasok and such were not considered) would be the same than adding the following rule to a FPS server:

1) Do not shoot anyone from the back, wait for this one to spot you as shooting from the back is cowardice, or warn the other player beforehand that you are going to shoot at his back or harm him with a surprise attack.

Other example(Now for the case of a multiplayer server of Civilization or other 4X game):

1) Do not send spies against other player civ/empire before warning him you are sending them.

That is where the problem resides on making such rules too subjective

While playing PlaneShift, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players.

Perhaps adding the following would make it better:

While playing PlaneShift, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players. However, threatening and commiting "evil" acts In-character with a solid RP behind them is not considered as this rule is for OOC actions of disregard

@zanzibar: Making accusations and insinuating certain things without proof?

* lordraleigh brings some lawsuits

[bilbous]

If someone hurtles into a work shop and back out again in real life the crafter would look whats going on. Now if in real life i were to trick a maniac who just kills the first person he sees, a la the rogues, into following me into a crowed place purely because i felt like creating havoc that is possible no? If so it is an understandable RP.

Understandable if you too are a maniac, is your character that psychotic? If it is perhaps it belongs in an asylum. Face it this action was just done to get around having to have a challenge accepted to kill weaker players.  That is the crux of the infraction.

So maybe the crafters would be helped if there was sound so if a rouge does come in grunting and roaring they would be aware but I think by no means should 'player 1' be punished because the crafters in a town full of rogues cant keep an eye out for such incedents. The real question that should be asked is WHY is oja so over run and WHY would anyone in their right mind build a public forge in such an insecure location? I'm sure if people used a blacksmithy in the hyldaa there would be alot less of such incedents.

Umm if you want to train your skill past what Harnie will train you need to see Trasok, who in their right mind would want to run back and forth between training and practicing. It is bad enough having to spend so much time working, the unnecessary travel makes it worse.

[Volund]

I will be sure to lure ulbernauts into town. Ah! ill do it during a festival and while everyones drunk they will be run through with a giant spike from a bloody mouthed monster. Lovely. Guards, seriously. I have told so many people and a couple Gms to give me power over the rogues but they are afraid of me...

[bilbous]

Better still do it during a wedding, if you are lucky you can get both the bride and the groom! or possibly both grooms or both brides I suppose.

[Volund]

Dam, no WAIT o my god, I am a naughty boy! I will lure an ulbernaught as the stripper for some poor guys bachelor party, ill say it is a woman klyros...then when they are dead and have a horrbile hangover walking in DR talking about how much they want to kill volund i have already made the groom sign off his fiance to me while the ulbernaught is his forever wife! THE END!

[neko kyouran]

Learn C++, program the code that would have the rogues go back to thier original area after chasing someone for so long, submit it to the dev team for review, wait until it gets put in game.  Problems solved.