Author Topic: I came, I saw, I left.  (Read 6462 times)

Zanah

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I came, I saw, I left.
« on: April 05, 2007, 08:23:37 pm »
I have played a commercial MMORPG (World of Warcraft) heavily for six months, but when I tried this free game I was quite prepared to lower my expectations substantially.

Unfortunately, I wasn't prepared just how far my expectations would have to be lowered. I expected little, and Planeshift delivered precisely that.

It seems everyone involved in Planeshift works on what they find the most fun, not on what most urgently needs to be done. Take the OS X client for example, which lacks rudimentary features, such as full screen support. Anyone even moderately knowledgeable about 3D graphics programming on OS X knows performance totally blows when running in windowed mode. It's no flaw of the OS, it's just that a full screen game gets to monopolize the graphics card, while a windowed game has to share cycles and VRAM with the OS and other running applications. This means the most obvious 'optimization', the most urgent thing to do with the engine, is to add full screen support, pronto! Besides, windowed mode isn't very immersive, so A 3D game simply can't live without it anyway. There's no way around it, It has to be added, at an early pre-alpha stage!

And it's not very hard to do either. A couple of lines of code suffices. A reasonably competent programmer will do it in fifteen minutes tops. Exceedingly well spent time.

But here Planeshift is, FIVE YEARS in development, and no full screen support is forthcoming. Not now, not in the foreseeable future, probably never. Apparently this is not sexy enough for the volunteers to look into. Not an interesting problem to fix. It's boring to the programmers, so it's not going to happen, no matter how urgent it may be.

Perhaps this just goes to prove open source don't work?

Polish, the elusive thing which open source never achieves, is fully lacking from Planeshift. It's not just that all too many things are ugly, incomplete, bugged or lacking, it's a deeper problem. There just isn't any final 'perfected state' envisioned, which everyone coordinates their efforts to achieve, on schedule. No, In an open source project, everyone just works on the thing more or less in random. It may 'improve' a lot over time, but never achieves any predefined goals. Some parts will be fixed, some will not be fixed. Ever.

User Friendliness, the other elusive thing open source regularily fails at delivering, is fully lacking too. It's not just that the new user has no freaking idea what he/she is supposed to be doing, or that the interface is clunky and poorly thought out, it's once again a deeper problem. When someone 'complains' in even the most reasonable way about some obvious problem, this is instantly brushed aside.

"Feature X don't work? Do something else then!" is the attitude.

"Have patience!" and "Don't try to gameplay, roleplay!" and even "It's supposed to be painful!" are other little pearls of wisdom concerned people have got at this forum. Very few are actually able to lower their expectations far enough for this game to fit the bill, it seems.

When pushed against the wall about the lousy quality of their software, open source proponents usually resort to "you can't demand anything, you get what you pay for!", which is exactly the point. If you pay zero, and 'get what you pay for', you're not getting very much bang for your time spent, are you?

"Planeshift will revolutionize the gaming world over the next few years", the web site boldly claims. I seriously doubt it. The quality is far below the mark even today, and the attitude towards the new player is downright hostile. I will rather pay money for something worth my time, and so will the vast majority of players out there, I assure you.

mufler

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Re: I came, I saw, I left.
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2007, 08:46:39 pm »
i agree and disagree, yes the game has a few if not meny errors and bugs and yes the game isent full screen but one thing this game has that WOW and GW has is a real online community, they talk and play in RPG, unlike GW or WOW were its not half suprising to find somebody swearing and talking about what they do next sunday with there gf..

And i guess you never realised that PS is volentered work from people all over? were as WoW has a office huge amount of exsperts and a very very large amount of income and money?

But yes, PS is below the standered but its getting better, just give it time, maybe even join the team yourself..

Piker

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Re: I came, I saw, I left.
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2007, 09:22:49 pm »
The very fact this isn't a WOW clone is why i play this game. Fair enought things here aren't perfect, but who ever expects them to be? this is a free game using the devs free time and goodwill.

You also failed to mention the one thing that many PS excels at, community and rp, something all the commercials i have played have lacked majorly.

Zanah

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Re: I came, I saw, I left.
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2007, 09:24:22 pm »
The lack of a community, or rather the sad abundance of jerks and imbeciles, is what drove me from WoW in the first place, so that is a nice thing. But what good is a nice community, if all you can do together, is to stand around and talk? In WoW, you can actually have very fun and fulfilling adventures with a good group. There are loads of stuff to do, and the gameplay is rich and interesting. It's just the difficulty of putting together a good group that puts you off.

I did actually use the word "volunteer" above, so yes, I do understand he situation perfectly. Blizzard obviously pulls in a lot of money, and you don't.

But please note, I did not complain about the graphics, it's fine for the purpose. I mainly complained about the lack of direction, the ability to get the most needed things done. I don't see this. I do see a bad attitude towards those who try to help by pointing out problems. Sure it's not fun to hear, but still, sometimes you need to listen to the input of others.

I did consider fixing the full screen thing myself, but while I'm just barely enough competent a programmer to get it done, the team has high demands (wanting resumes and stuff), so I can't do it. But when I read these forums about the state of things, I got discouraged anyway. No functioning magic? Aaah, crap.

Induane

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Re: I came, I saw, I left.
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2007, 09:27:10 pm »
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It seems everyone involved in Planeshift works on what they find the most fun, not on what most urgently needs to be done.

Wrong.  People are delegated tasks, they don't just work on whats fun.  As for the OSX fullscreen support this has to do with some of the advanced ways that crystalspace (the 3d engine behind PS) handles opengl fullscreen support and child windows.  Due to some BUGS in the implementation of OpenGL in some macs, fullscreen support is disabled, though I thought this was only one some macs... perhaps its the official client that disabled it temporarily, though I thought it worked on some machines.  You could always try compiling yourself after all.  My site has a good compiling guide for OSX.  Its NOT something ANY programmer could fix in 15 minutes - its not a lack of implementation or motivation its due to bugs and technological restrictions.  Your view here is VERY short sighted.

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Perhaps this just goes to prove open source don't work?

Stupid and useless point/attack.  There are plenty of usable and great open source apps out there, some better than their proprietary counterparts.  One feature in one app on ONE OS proves absolutely nothing.  Try discussion of intelligent points instead of baseless attacks.

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Polish, the elusive thing which open source never achieves, is fully lacking from Planeshift. It's not just that all too many things are ugly, incomplete, bugged or lacking, it's a deeper problem. There just isn't any final 'perfected state' envisioned, which everyone coordinates their efforts to achieve, on schedule. No, In an open source project, everyone just works on the thing more or less in random. It may 'improve' a lot over time, but never achieves any predefined goals. Some parts will be fixed, some will not be fixed. Ever.

There is a final perfected state envisioned.  This project actually suffers as a result in my opinion. Its not open ENOUGH.  Its so derned focused on its highly specific goals, and is run in a manner more akin to a corporation with tasks delegated out, and deadlines, that it is more like a closed development program with available source.   Better run OSS projects like OpenOffice, WINE, etc all have roadmaps AND open development models which allows stable reliable releases with innovation. 

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"Planeshift will revolutionize the gaming world over the next few years", the web site boldly claims. I seriously doubt it. The quality is far below the mark even today, and the attitude towards the new player is downright hostile. I will rather pay money for something worth my time, and so will the vast majority of players out there, I assure you.

I do think the newbie attitude is a bit hostile, so I agree to a point there, but then again newbies shouldn't be playing an Alpha stage game without expecting frustration.  That is a double edged sword with both sides with points.  People just need to relax and have fun and quit finger pointing.

I do think PS would progress if the model was a bit more open.  I have tried to make this point many times but its clear that the highly focused, goal oriented model will continue. 

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Polish, the elusive thing which open source never achieves, is fully lacking from Planeshift.


Very few alpha stage products are very polished. 

Also, there are many very polished open source apps.  OpenOffice, Gimp, Inkscape, Blender, Krita, Rosegarden, Aurdor, VLC Media Player, XMMS, Amarok, FireFox, Inkscape, Thunderbird, etc... all very polished apps.  There are many more. 

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"Feature X don't work? Do something else then!" is the attitude.

No, the attitude is to fill out a bug report first, then go on playing around the bug.  You can't expect to encounter a bug and have everyone on the dev team go OMG QUICK WE"LL FIX IT NOW!!  They should be a bit more proactive imo, but with the small number of actives on the team, I think they do reasonably well, with room for improvement. 

Quote
But here Planeshift is, FIVE YEARS in development, and no full screen support is forthcoming. Not now, not in the foreseeable future, probably never. Apparently this is not sexy enough for the volunteers to look into. Not an interesting problem to fix. It's boring to the programmers, so it's not going to happen, no matter how urgent it may be.

Just for fun I'll drive home the point that all of this idea you have here is plain wrong.  There is a model, there are deadlines, there are assigned tasks.  Since claiming this isn't the case is like 50% of your argument at least, and its obviously factually completely wrong, you might look at some of your other points too.  You have a reaction to playing, and it wasn't good. Thats fine.  But actually research and talk to the devs and people and see how things really work before making attacks unfounded in reality.

Karyuu

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Re: I came, I saw, I left.
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2007, 09:31:29 pm »
We have about 10 people active on the team, all working on various tasks, struggling with jobs and classes and life as well.

If anyone here can help out, or do better, please do so and we will welcome you with open arms - instead of the hostility you may see returned to you in this thread.

Have a nice day, somewhere else.
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

lordraleigh

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Re: I came, I saw, I left.
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2007, 09:46:08 pm »
In Planeshift current alpha stage:

Roleplay = 7 (There is the usual godmodder and sometimes "leets" appear, but there is a community of RPers)
Gameplay = 0 (Combat system fully flawed and still relying on player skills that are more difficult to master than the ones used in FPSes and on bandwith. Economy stills need balance. NPCs are very "smart". I forgot last time I used something with the current alpha game engine with dubious gameplay instead of /me and /my on RP)

Overall = 6 (Lacks a proper engine to aid on roleplaying, but that can be bypassed with proper use of "RP-fights", something that requires a good community mostly. Once it reaches another level of development I would give something between 8 and 10 according to what I see)

In other MMO(RP?)Gs:

Roleplay= 0 (First thing you need is a "1337speak" dictionary, they are usually filled with PKers, KSers, "13375" and jerks among others)
Gameplay= 1 (Kill mob, Kill mob, Kill mob, Kill mob, repeat, repeat, repeat. Kill PC, Kill PC, Kill PC. Watch your character killing stuff. *yawns* That is really "fun"! Hack n' Slash sucks, I prefer "Shoot n' Kill", AKA FPSes. real MMORPGs shouldn't focus on slaughtering mobs)

Overall = 0 (I rarely manage to play one for much time as my patience runs over with their boring and repetitive gameplay systems tailored for powerlevelling where everything you have to do is either killing mobs or killing PCs - something I usually prefer to do in a deathmatch or CTF)

There's a reason I always disliked the genre of  MMO"RP"Gs and instead stayed(and still do it) mostly with good CRPGs like Planescape Torment and Neverwinter Nights: Character development is based on repeatedly killing mobs instead of natural progression of the character on a consistent plot(Could be done with large scale quests for example).
« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 10:05:08 pm by lordraleigh »

Araye

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Re: I came, I saw, I left.
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2007, 09:53:38 pm »
I agree with Induane totally.

And the "hostility" is being worked on.  When you started, did you notice the help that popped up to answer why things were happening to your character?  That's pretty new.  I know that Xillix is working on making a newbie's arrival to Yliakum more pleasant.  So things are and do change for the better.  Maybe not as fast as you'd like, but they are happening.  Maybe Xillix can implement a "lit path" the first time you die and have spent three hours searching for a way out?

The game has changed so much since I first started playing.  And I agree that the oldies get a certain elitest attitude, but to just stop by and take a dump on the hard work of a dozen or so people is insulting.  The goal is not to make a free WoW, but to make "PS - a role playing game".

Thank you Dev Team!

mufler

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Re: I came, I saw, I left.
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2007, 12:54:23 am »
Thanks dev team! :woot:

lordraleigh

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Re: I came, I saw, I left.
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2007, 01:28:58 am »
Thank you Community! ;)

And dev team: Keep the focus on attracting and promoting Roleplaying and repelling "1337 Cr3w5". I'm not sure about an Open PvP Area on such matters as it may encourage PKers. And this is my complaint:

Where is the law? Is there an IC explanation for that open PvP area?

Induane

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Re: I came, I saw, I left.
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2007, 03:15:13 am »
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Where is the law? Is there an IC explanation for that open PvP area?

An interesting tangent to the original point of this thread, and imo, a more pressing one.  I love the idea of openpvp simply because its more realistic.  Having it in a certain area like an arena, is a good idea because it allows RP'rs to avoid it if possible, and adds a dimension of the game that some might like and some might hate, yet keeps things separate - its the closest thing I can see to the best of both worlds. 

bilbous

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Re: I came, I saw, I left.
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2007, 06:22:59 am »
Excuse me for speaking about the mac software which I know little about but can't you just set the screen dimensions to you desktop resolution so that nothing else is stealing cycles?

Xillix Queen of Fools

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Re: I came, I saw, I left.
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2007, 09:11:44 am »
Lol induane speak of that in the the proper open thread :D

Lordraleigh I am very pleased to hear you speaking well of PS

and to the person leaving . . .

bye, enjoy WoW.

Cherppow

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Re: I came, I saw, I left.
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2007, 02:50:05 pm »
Greetings,

First of all I want to thank for the feedback and replies.

I agree with Zanah that PlaneShift is not very user friendly or "polished" in it's current version. Certainly not comparable to leading commercial games such as WoW. I've tried World of Warcraft too, the user interface is very easy and powerful, visuals are great (if little toonish) and stability next to flawless. Still, I got bored in under three months. It just wasn't captivating enough for me.

On the other hand I've been around PlaneShift since late 2003, first few years as a player, and after 2005 as a modeler. There are piles of hand drawn plans, sketches and stories of PS in my desk drawers, which tell of the interest I feel towards the game. I know PlaneShift's not perfect, it's got a fair share of flaws as is. But I look past the present - I see the potential. With time and work, PS can be made into a pearl among computer games.

Most of all though, it takes people who believe in it and make it happen. I respect everyone who lend their time and knowledge to work towards a common goal. I find it quite amazing that a small dev team is able to build and manage a project of this magnitude. Half of the thanks go to our GM team and active tester base.

Thanks,
- Cherppow

Drahlian

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Re: I came, I saw, I left.
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2007, 11:51:15 am »
Zanah,

Please don't lump in Planeshift with other Open Source projects. For one thing, Planeshift is not 100% Open Source, if I understand it correctly. The "art" is owned by someone privately. It is not run at all like some of the best open source projects.

Though I agree with much of what you say about Planeshift being buggy, lacking a decent magic system, and dreadfully slow progress, this has nothing to do with Open Source in general. Did you know that more than 70% of the web is driven by open source software? Apache, Bind, Linux (Google uses it), BSD (Yahoo uses it), MySQL and PostgreSQL, PHP, Perl, Python, IPcop, etc. These are all Open Source projects that are highly polished, stable projects of the highest quality.

-Drahlian
« Last Edit: February 06, 2008, 01:42:15 am by neko kyouran »