Author Topic: My concern: Guilds in PS  (Read 4658 times)

Nikodemus

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My concern: Guilds in PS
« on: April 24, 2007, 11:38:55 pm »
This was originally wrote there But to avoid off topic, i asked to move it there, hope you won't mind people ;P

You know guys and girls, you complain at his idea of creating somethign what doesn't belong to PS setting and game reality . Of course, his idea is doomed on IC failure, but look at your guilds, at your stories for a second.
Are they part of the setting? Did "facts" of your story really happen? Yes you claim so, we all do. But the truth is you and your guildmates are the only signs of it being true. If so, is it?

Hell no!!

NPCs won't say a word about you. Places which are important in your story don't exist at all, or you claim so, that you own something what was never what you describe.
The current policy of things to go in PS is exactly like this and you really can't be sure this will ever change. We are mean't to have guildhouses in future, but this is valing only to guilds like fighters, mages, crafters and such (guilds exactly as they were in medieval times). 90% of current guilds are different, you all know the topic well.
Even the Vespers of Laanx, they don't belong there. Laanx already have its temple with NPCs inside, who know nothing about this "guild", None of these NPC will treat them any better than any other person.
All you can do is wait as the devs do the wole stuff for you, because you can't change the setting, make places story. While it is so needed for your guild, the setting is already written and it is obvious that if you want your guild to be IC, your guild story needs to go int setting. I'm not talking there about anything big, just some space in the world.
By making a character you are changing the setting as from this point there is e.g. new smith, noone may care about, yet it is part of the setting.
But you aren't allowed to do it with your guild.

Knowledge Seekers, if I remember well, you wanted to have an university. You wouldn't get it
Arcane Order and their tower, i doubt it would happen (maybe they should be happy they are no more..)
All the guilds playing guards, you wouldn't get any features permitting you to really do your job, because what if you would freak out? terrible disaster... eh.

I'm hearng this all the time here ad there. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, you can have places which really these places. There is easy way to prove it

A guild after a guild is disappearing, RPing guilds! People who planned to stay for longer. No wonder they are leaving if whatever they come up with won't go in game.
There is huge bell ringing at the tower with a little helpless guy screeming for help
Anyone besides me hear it?

I know that maybe it isn't best topic for such a post, but maybe someone should really read it and think on the problem? Like Talad? I don't know
« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 10:40:42 pm by Nikodemus »



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Tiren

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My concern: Guilds in PS
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2007, 01:10:49 am »
Just some comments, really its all off topic though

Are they part of the setting? Did "facts" of your story really happen? Yes you claim so, we all do. But the truth is you and your guildmates are the only signs of it being true. If so, is it?

Is  what your saying by that (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that any guild who "creates" a history or background story that they do not rp out beforehand is invalid because the only background story is the one in the settings? If you think about it from a view that this world is "real" there are many things that happen without everyone in the world knowing about it.  When I think about a guilds history (really refering to my own) I think about the unheard stories in the world, the ones that few know if any.  No one, whether ncp or player, can say they have seen everything and know everything.  Does this mean that every story is true? No and it doesn't mean each one exactly fits.  Some stories are too big for them to go unnoticed but some are low key, easily able to happen without a great amount of people learning of it.


NPCs won't say a word about you. Places which are important in your story don't exist at all, or you claim so, that you own something what was never what you describe.
The current policy of things to go in PS is exactly like this and you really can't be sure this will ever change. We are mean't to have guildhouses in future, but this is valing only to guilds like fighters, mages, crafters and such (guilds exactly as they were in medieval times). 90% of current guilds are different, you all know the topic well.
Even the Vespers of Laanx, they don't belong there. Laanx already have its temple with NPCs inside, who know nothing about this "guild", None of these NPC will treat them any better than any other person.
All you can do is wait as the devs do the wole stuff for you, because you can't change the setting, make places story. While it is so needed for your guild, the setting is already written and it is obvious that if you want your guild to be IC, your guild story needs to go int setting. I'm not talking there about anything big, just some space in the world.
By making a character you are changing the setting as from this point there is e.g. new smith, noone may care about, yet it is part of the setting.
But you aren't allowed to do it with your guild.

As players we can never say whether or not NCP's will acknoledge our presence in the world for the fact that we can not control them.  However, it can be assumed that NCP's (if you are treating them as actual people living in the "world") do notice us as well as our many guilds for the fact that we talk around them, talk to them (while questing), and do busniess with them (through buy/selling and training).  Not saying you can say "This NCP is my friend" but  they know we are here.  Does this mean that "The Vespers of Laanx" will get noticed by NCP members of the church? Of course they will but their power over the church truely only can be limited to a more "volunteer" service less the NCP's allowed more (And I could be wrong).  Also its very possible for many of the places people rp to have been to are real.  There are places and things in the world even Laanx and Talad don't understand or haven't been too.  The stone labyrinths are an example of a place and the portals from which different races came from as a thing.  Am I saying one can have a huge city or kingdom as a place in their story? No, that would exceede the eventual limits of the land of Ylikuam but it can be assumed that there were smaller villages within the wild lands.  For example I could, if granted enough people, start a village on the Oja Road ingame.  Would it be recognized by the goverment of Yliakum? I doubt it because its small but truely its not possible for me to predict the actions of Yliakums goverment. 


Arcane Order and their tower, i doubt it would happen (maybe they should be happy they are no more..)

Tower's could possibly happen because according to the website we will eventually be able to own our own castles in future developments.

Of course, his idea is doomed on IC failure

I disagree  :o.  And I would not advise you saying that to other people attempting to make guilds, if you do of course you will have a problem with having rping guilds.  Its always hard to get people to follow a guild with an extreme idea and more work but I think when one like that is established it makes the rping in the game much better than if someone was just to establish "another protect the people" guild. 

Socius Rockus

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My concern: Guilds in PS
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2007, 02:21:54 pm »
You know guys and girls, you complain at his idea of creating somethign what doesn't belong to PS setting and game reality . Of course, his idea is doomed on IC failure, but look at your guilds, at your stories for a second.
Are they part of the setting? Did "facts" of your story really happen? Yes you claim so, we all do. But the truth is you and your guildmates are the only signs of it being true. If so, is it?
::) I know of at least two guilds whose story isn't about Great battles fought long ago and crap like that: sAsL and Alethiea ( :'( still a bit sad about that one, never really came of the ground)
There is just plain the history of the guild, the how and why...  Think that's an important one for a guild to go with, and the history can be expended by acts of the guild and such ;) So not EVERY guild thinks up a awesome cool sounding story about their guild :P

Cause hey, what guild would you prefer to join? one who 'says' they did cool things and such, or one which is well known in the community because of their deeds, actions ect.
(In the medieval, most peiople who wanted to join a guild (example smithy guild) and wanted to become a good smithy, I think they would choose because of the quality of work they saw, rather then what they say about it ;) )

Nikodemus

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My concern: Guilds in PS
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2007, 04:04:56 pm »
Socius, where in that quote I'm talking about some big battles and stuff? Nowhere. Most of all i'm talking about all this what we think is in setting (because it really could), but it never will. (there you should really read the rest of my post ;))
A gem cuters guild pop up, because some NPC mentions about gem cutters guild, and the players claim to be from the guild the NPC mentions. The orginal guild is nowhere around, so the players assume that maybe they are from second level (not deloped for players yet). You all make these assumptions, but they are all wrong, you all made it up and noone except those you convince will believe it and most of all, a NPC will never agree with you.
Maybe someone will say it is same example as with the great battle, but i can't write an example on every occassion, you need to use your brain to think about them.
You give two guilds of yours as examples, second has no real history yet, so it is discarted and first has no history too. What is known about it, is that there is some guy who lately though to form a group of people who would share his ideals. Sounds right i must confess. Sounds right, a player makes a character and from this point this character is building whole his guild completly from scratch. There is one problem with it. You want all the guilds around to be no more than 4 years old max? (4 years of PS history) No traditions, no generations, in fact nothing at all? You sure it is normal too, that at one point of Yliakum history suddently such a guilds started to pop up from nowhere?

Cause hey, what guild would you prefer to join? one who 'says' they did cool things and such, or one which is well known in the community because of their deeds, actions ect.
I want both at the same time, I don't understand why you want me to choose.

Is  what your saying by that (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that any guild who "creates" a history or background story that they do not rp out beforehand is invalid because the only background story is the one in the settings?
You don't need to tell me it, it is not my opinion, it is what i see around there and it is not me at all who you have to convince. I'm rather angry it is like that.

As players we can never say whether or not NCP's will acknoledge our presence in the world for the fact that we can not control them.  However, it can be assumed that NCP's (if you are treating them as actual people living in the "world") do notice us as well as our many guilds for the fact that we talk around them, talk to them (while questing), and do busniess with them (through buy/selling and training).  Not saying you can say "This NCP is my friend" but  they know we are here.  Does this mean that "The Vespers of Laanx" will get noticed by NCP members of the church? Of course they will but their power over the church truely only can be limited to a more "volunteer" service less the NCP's allowed more (And I could be wrong).  Also its very possible for many of the places people rp to have been to are real.  There are places and things in the world even Laanx and Talad don't understand or haven't been too.  The stone labyrinths are an example of a place and the portals from which different races came from as a thing.  Am I saying one can have a huge city or kingdom as a place in their story? No, that would exceede the eventual limits of the land of Ylikuam but it can be assumed that there were smaller villages within the wild lands.  For example I could, if granted enough people, start a village on the Oja Road ingame.  Would it be recognized by the goverment of Yliakum? I doubt it because its small but truely its not possible for me to predict the actions of Yliakums goverment. 
You are making too many assumptions and think they are right. Lol, I agree it would be possible, but still, every single part of it is expanding the setting. You as player has no right to do it. Only devs can expand and build the setting.
And again, it is not up to me to decide, i'm only informing about what maybe i found about and waiting for the right people to prove it otherwise with words and then actions

I disagree  :o.  And I would not advise you saying that to other people attempting to make guilds, if you do of course you will have a problem with having rping guilds.  Its always hard to get people to follow a guild with an extreme idea and more work but I think when one like that is established it makes the rping in the game much better than if someone was just to establish "another protect the people" guild. 
Your advise noted and ignored. I would rather live informed than in a lie. And its exactly what you are advising. I must be saying truth though, if you are concerned.

Well, good luck and again, don't tell it all like it was evil me who got the idea.



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Xillix Queen of Fools

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My concern: Guilds in PS
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2007, 04:16:41 pm »
Player generated content is not impossible, it is unlikely for a very long time.

If players or longstanding guilds have potential assets they are working on adrress it directly to talad or ask Karyuu to put in the Q & A series to get an answer.

I am not really big on egocentric or guildocentric assets perhaps if such were generated with criteria provided by the dev team at some point in the distant future it could be realized. neko i will start a thread . . .  http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=28479.msg327644#new

We are very far from that day.

I have only one trouble with this new religion. The fact Tiren focuses on the Xacha. Settings is pretty clear on how the Xacha survived and why they worship who they worship. Conceptually however this idea is not horrible and does not offend me.

I mean if some crazy fenki ran around calling herself octarch that would just be ugly:

"Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bink lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!"
« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 04:20:02 pm by Xillix Queen of Fools »

Raleigh

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My concern: Guilds in PS
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2007, 06:58:53 pm »
I mean if some crazy fenki ran around calling herself octarch that would just be ugly:

"Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bink lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!"

Depending on how creatively it's done, it might end up quite funny:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_of_the_United_States  :whistling:



Now I'll address to Nikodemus points.

Did "facts" of your story really happen? Yes you claim so, we all do. But the truth is you and your guildmates are the only signs of it being true. If so, is it?

Hell no!!

NPCs won't say a word about you. Places which are important in your story don't exist at all, or you claim so, that you own something what was never what you describe.
The current policy of things to go in PS is exactly like this and you really can't be sure this will ever change. We are mean't to have guildhouses in future, but this is valing only to guilds like fighters, mages, crafters and such (guilds exactly as they were in medieval times). 90% of current guilds are different, you all know the topic well.

Does this mean my character pop out from existence having no past life too?

I don't think so, Settings deal with the larger things, or "guilds" wouldn't even be allowed to exist. None of my formed guilds have histories of "glorious battles", they came from the ideals of a character with several life experiences and from the banding of people with equal ideas together, before that, it simply did not exist.

Other problem. The word "guild" is incredibly OOC. In fact I refuse to use it IC to refer to anything besides commercial guilds, and Planeshift is not a 100% accurate reproduction of RW medieval age, or we wouldn't have magic, several races, most people being literate(according to some old posts) and structures like the Winch. The problem is the overusage of the expression "guild" to refer to something that IC shouldn't be called as a guild.

About NPCs, well they are pretty much closed systems right now(Say keywords, do quest, get reward, ask questions), they won't change their behavior and what they talk about based on PCs actions, so the fact they don't say a word about any guild does not mean that those don't exist really and are just our inventions, but that they aren't smart enough to do it  ;)

Now if, as you claim, the official policy is to eventually dismiss all guilds as "outside the Settings", why are we allowed to do then so? Just to be frustated and leave Planeshift in masses? It simply doesn't make sense. It's just a question of not having yet the features that will allow "guilds" to really "put their mark" on the world beyond the perceptions of PCs, in my opinion.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 07:20:21 pm by Raleigh »

Araye

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Re: My concern: Guilds in PS
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2007, 07:30:29 pm »
The history of PS is that which is remembered by those that lived it.  Sometimes it is written down, ie. the settings and npc comments.  Sometimes it is oral traditions passed down from one to another often in song.

While playing PS, I have witnessed the history of PS.  Who's to say what I've seen and experienced hasn't happened?  I have the logs afterall.  Sure the settings team can say "hey, that didn't happen" or "that's against the settings", but my character lived it, so it did happen.

That's the risk taken from letting people play a  :beta: game.

The ordinary life people live rarely makes it into the history books, that doesn't mean their history didn't happen or that it wasn't important; just that the recorders of history didn't see fit to record it - for whatever reason.

Araye

P.S. I am proud to have served the Octarch.

Garile

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Re: My concern: Guilds in PS
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2007, 01:46:03 pm »
*shakes her head*

Nikodemus in my eyes you are looking at it all wrong. NPCs don't acknowledge us? True, but why  don't they acknowledge us? is it becuase w e didn't actually do anything? I would back to differ. The Dark Empire has been around 5 RL years. Depending how you RP this can be up to 30 years ingame. Now you are saying that becuase the NPCs don't have GAMEMECHANICS to actually learn about us and respond to us nothing of those years of roleplaying happened?

The NPCs are only representations of people, but if you are using them in RP you have to act as if they are really people. At the moment you could start a fight or call the bartender all kind of things and still the bartender wouldn't flinch at all. Would it therefor be realistic to RP the bartender just standing there unflinching? Would it be realistic to murder someone infront of the guards and then do the happy-happy dance in front of them and then simply walk home? I mean the guards don't do anything so ofcourse it musn't be against the law then.

Common sence says that limitations becuase NPCs are infact NPCs is never a valid argument to actually roleplay like half the population consists of people who don't have a functioning brain.

Do I want the game to change and the setting to be added upon so we as players have more influence on events? Ofcourse. I think this is the major things missing at the moment in PS. The devs atm don't even change some little things manually exept for OOC naming mostly the GMs can see atm I believe. Great RPs aren't being rewarded by it having an effect like it might in the real world.
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Idoru

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Re: My concern: Guilds in PS
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2007, 02:33:40 pm »
I dont see an issue with the new guilds apparent OOCness, its not OOC to hae a belief. The same way that you can play a Kran that doesnt believe in Talad. We are playing beings capable of original thought. They can think for themselves and they can be equally wrong as real people.

As for the original post in this thread, I would be shocked if you had actually bothered to read peoples guild threads before making this remark:

look at your guilds, at your stories for a second.
Are they part of the setting? Did "facts" of your story really happen? Yes you claim so, we all do. But the truth is you and your guildmates are the only signs of it being true. If so, is it?

Hell no!!

The only guild post that I know well enough to make any definite statement about is Elemental Light's, and we made no bold claims about our history. Infact we actually toned down our true history to avoid mentioning the things that had actually happened. No point rakeing up bad memories.

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Nikodemus

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Re: My concern: Guilds in PS
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2007, 05:58:31 pm »
Please people read carefully what i write! Don't use arguments which are no longer valid. For example, I already agreed, that once your character is created, his actions are real. Of course we are still restricted there a lot, since you can't have e.g. a house! A place which orginally served different purpose can't suddently change it. You can't make up stories about places, which already have their story (even lack of something special in a given time can't be erased! You can't claim something happened there, if it was otherwise).
And so there is a problem with everything before character was actually made. It is so problematic, that we make our stories as much placeless and theoretical, that we almost can feel fine with it, especially Idoru did it ;)

Does this mean my character pop out from existence having no past life too?
Yes, that is logical conclussion. If we aren't allowed to create places ( if we could, there would be no problem to make a campfire in CS and let devs to put it in game), why is crafting a sword in setting?
It makes no sense we can do one and not another, but it leads to a conclussion that all what is possible through game features is in setting. Everything else is not.

I don't think so, Settings deal with the larger things, or "guilds" wouldn't even be allowed to exist. None of my formed guilds have histories of "glorious battles", they came from the ideals of a character with several life experiences and from the banding of people with equal ideas together, before that, it simply did not exist.
What "glorious battles"? what the heck are you talkig about? Read previous posts again.

About NPCs, well they are pretty much closed systems right now(Say keywords, do quest, get reward, ask questions), they won't change their behavior and what they talk about based on PCs actions, so the fact they don't say a word about any guild does not mean that those don't exist really and are just our inventions, but that they aren't smart enough to do it  ;)
Given the fact, there is problem with making up places, or stories to already existing places, it is almost sure that what we talk about there, is not a problem with undeveloped game, but because you as character are permitted most of the stuff, which you normally would do.

Now if, as you claim, the official policy is to eventually dismiss all guilds as "outside the Settings", why are we allowed to do then so? Just to be frustated and leave Planeshift in masses? It simply doesn't make sense. It's just a question of not having yet the features that will allow "guilds" to really "put their mark" on the world beyond the perceptions of PCs, in my opinion.
Or it is because even though devs don't want to allow us everything, they still want us to have fun. Restricted, but still fun. Unfortunatelly it isn't working right ;) People get ennoyed by such approach and realise how much what they would like to do is impossible simply because of this damn OOC rule.
I realised it and i try to realise it to you, since noone will really take serious indyviduals like me. If the approach won't change, it will most likely lead to me leaving PS as a place restricting my will to RP.


Araye: Ok, stories passed by oral traditions. Why not books, monuments, something material? Because this way you are going outside the setting. Why the heck we need to be affraid of doing that stuff? Because we aren't really supposed to change the setting. I want to do what i want, RP.
Later you are talking about what your character actually did. Tell, if you assasinated the Octarch, would that be accepted? That is great you had a chance for these actions, but you had to play your role, keeping it from being too loose.


Idoru, hehe, of course one thing we are allowed is to have a belief, but you are feeling ok with it? Don't you never want to make an actual story? What is stopping you? hehe ;)
Quote
The only guild post that I know well enough to make any definite statement about is Elemental Light's, and we made no bold claims about our history. Infact we actually toned down our true history to avoid mentioning the things that had actually happened. No point rakeing up bad memories.
Only your guild needs that "things that had actually happened", Why couldn't you keep it? Was it outsoide the setting? ;P Why were you forced to make your guild placeless and theoretical assumptions so much? Don't you feel that your RP is restricted without a reason? Couldn't you talk about your story with devs to make it fit in setting? Edit it enough, that places will actually pop up, (just like the winch poped up for us lately), someting what will also make sense with the rest of the setting?
Why didn't you? eh.



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Caarrie

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Re: My concern: Guilds in PS
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2007, 06:19:55 pm »
Sorry to get off topic but not all guilds are made at first for ic reasons some guilds are made because of OOC issues that bring people together first then they create the guild followed by the IC reasons leaving out the OOC reason they made the guild to start with. I personally dont have a problem with this, and for this reason i dont ask guilds why did your guild get formed unless they wish to explain it. [example: guild gets disbanned and one member wishes to keep that guild strong so rebuilds it then has to create a new history for it that fits the settings]
« Last Edit: April 26, 2007, 06:26:11 pm by Caarrie »

Nikodemus

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Re: My concern: Guilds in PS
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2007, 07:39:03 pm »
yeah, it is very off topic ;P
All people shoulc have a chance to learn and ultimately make a guild with all we expect from it. But at this point they will have a problem, if they try to make their guild roots a bit furher, than the last few months they were existing ;P Because as i said before, each guild try to have some places and facts, which may be made only by the devs. Most of it may be completly unimportant, so noone will care, but the rest will be problematic for them to RP it.



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Idoru

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Re: My concern: Guilds in PS
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2007, 08:17:15 pm »
actually the reason for Elemental Light's existence is a mixture of your's and Caarrie's last posts. It was created due to OOC problems that caused the collapse of a former guild that I loved. Several of the members of the previous guild loved it also and wanted to recreate a guild with similar aims and principals under a new leadership. I was subsequently elected leader.

If EL were to come up with a story that didnt include the extreme OOC-ness of the previous guilds collapse it would be just inventing something out of nowhere, hence there is no mention of the reasons the previous guild collapsed. There was no plausible IC explanation for the collapse of the previous guild that wouldnt fall into the category of 'creating history'. The lesser of two evils in my opinion.

We are the guild we are due to both IC and OOC connections, and personally I think it has formed a guild that lives in the best of both worlds without being too heavily OOC.

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Duraza

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Re: My concern: Guilds in PS
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2007, 01:26:33 am »
I have only one trouble with this new religion. The fact Tiren focuses on the Xacha. Settings is pretty clear on how the Xacha survived and why they worship who they worship. Conceptually however this idea is not horrible and does not offend me.

It does not focus on the Xacha.  Xacha were just used as the original followers because according to the settings they lived within the stone labyrinths so they were ideal to use as initial followers.


I disagree  :o.  And I would not advise you saying that to other people attempting to make guilds, if you do of course you will have a problem with having rping guilds.  Its always hard to get people to follow a guild with an extreme idea and more work but I think when one like that is established it makes the rping in the game much better than if someone was just to establish "another protect the people" guild. 
Your advise noted and ignored. I would rather live informed than in a lie. And its exactly what you are advising. I must be saying truth though, if you are concerned.

Well, good luck and again, don't tell it all like it was evil me who got the idea.

I think what he's trying to say is that while yes you should tell the truth the truth does not have to be put in a way that discorages members from playing.  If you didn't like the idea and expressed why it would be different but to just tell someone "your guild will fail" is not a good way to help better guilds become formed.  You yourself are arguing for better guilds to be made but instead are telling people that their ideas won't work? Sounds kinda contradictory to me  ;)

@Nikodemus
What I'm getting at is that you feel places that already exist can not have some kind of "previous history" made by characters (especially guilds who try and make histories in this historic sites).  However do you feel that instead we should all just make up NEW places?  Should I just make a new land outside of Hydlaa and Oja, give it a name, say some things happened there, and make it my guild story because nothing else ever happened there? If everyone was to do that though then when the game was completed we'd all have to trash our guild stories because everything within Yliakum would finally be made.  I'm not saying you do feel this way but if you don't then where do you think the history of any guild should and CAN be made?  Think of it this way, everything happens somewhere.  I actually think that by people making different things happen in these places that DO exist and have history the game is more realistic.  For example, according to the settings something lived in the stone labyrinths before Laanx and Talad discovered them. Would they suddenly have never had any history till after one of the gods would have found them?  Things are always happening.  I think of the settings as a christian would think of a bible.  They believe that everything written there happened, but were they there to see it? No.  Could other things have happened during the times those things happened as well? Of course.  If only the settings happened, then suddenly we the players "appeared" in the game it would be unrealistic.  Things besides what are there HAD to have happened.  People, creatures, everything had to live, have their own history.  The settings is just what every player KNOWS happened, just like our bible.  Guild histories are those "untold" stories that happened in history but were never noticed.  Why they suddenly pop up? Because they are suddenly advertised and spoken about by others who know or LIVED through those times. 

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Re: My concern: Guilds in PS
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2007, 03:20:12 am »
I would not put much stock in what NPCs say, or do not say about people or guilds. I could ask them about Proglin, who has existed, and is largely known to the player characters. They would stare at you blankly, and ask you to speak in simpler terms. I guess that would mean Proglin never really existed? The act of simply talking to an NPC is OOC, as no one can hear what you say, and no one hears the response. NPCs right now are just vehicals for single player quests and a bit of info on the settings. Only take them as such.

Until there is a system in place where NPCs can acknowledge guilds and players, best to leave them out of the "reasons your guild does not exist' arguments.