Death

[Induane]

The other night I was skimming the news on all of my rss feeds, and of course, with a few exceptions (like the tech based feeds) there was the usual assortment of random useless death, pointless meaningless killings, and a few rants about intolerance of one religion by another - Christians calling atheists intolerant, atheists calling religions in general intolerant, Muslims split between calling for peace and an end to fanaticism, and calling for death to the heathens. I wondered, why I was lucky ; why is my life ok?  My kids are healthy, we don't want for food, we have no debilitating diseases and do not live in constant fear for our safety.  These other people are just as innocent, so it all must be arbitrary.  How can so many good people suffer so much while I sit around on my computer from the safety of my own home?

I'll be honest.  I've always fancied myself as somewhat religious, with deep spiritual beliefs, yet associating with no particular religion.  But as I read this I felt my faith shattered for some reason.  I'm not sure why it broke down when and the way it did, but it did just the same.  Generally I've not bothered to question the existence of God, and instead simply tried to learn, live, and explore the complexities and beauty of the world he laid out with my usual optimism.  I watch my kids grow with wonderment, I read of great discoveries, and generally plod along with my overall general sense of optimism. 

Last night was different.  I looked at all the death, the families displaced, the mothers crying over starved children who have died, families weeping for a fallen soldier in their families,  meaningless deaths in street violence around the world, suicide, and started to wonder where God was.  I'd always simply written off the lack of intervention by God as simple as we were given free will, and that God does not interfere with that.  I was comfortable with for a time but now it seems like a convenient answer, like so many do in religion.

All that brought me to death in my own right.  I lay awake all night trying to conceive death if there was no afterlife.  On one hand I've always felt that eternal existence would be boring eventually, but I found that lying there non existence was even more horrifying.  I couldn't even face it or accept it.  Are we just hard wired to have a healthy fear of death in the interests of self-preservation?  What was it?  Since then I've been so horribly troubled I cannot even begin to explain it.  I find myself constantly drifting off into daydreams - or day-nightmares where I try to picture how my final moments will be.  I think of what I will be thinking, how I will be rationalizing everything to myself, and I just cannot do it.  I know I'm fairly young, and death by old age is far away, yet for some reason it is clinging to me now, breathing down my neck, and won't leave me alone.

I cannot grasp it or comprehend it in any way. 

Am I the only one who ever feels like this? Is something wrong with me?

[Raleigh]

Lets hope that the theories about Quantum Immortality are right

Or that we will be alive once it happens, and that the estimations are not exaggerated, and that we can afford it as well(Capitalism= Welfare only for those who can afford it):

Medical science is currently exploring the aging process and has predicted that by 2050 it may be possible to live 300 or more years with the use of stem cell treatments, and until such a time as human DNA can be altered to incorporate this change directly into the genetic material.

Unfortunately though, the way it's going, World War 3 could happen much before 2050... and then:

I do not know with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.

[Feline Prince]

Einstein was a genuis. God doesn't exist, after going to a catholic school for 7 years teaches you that. Ive never worried about death. My only quake about it would be the people i leave behind. Maybe its because i'm a lazy sod and not existing seems far easier. As far as i can tell, dying of any other thing than old age is very painful or very hard and time consuming to set up, so I'm gonna leave old age do the trick and try not to think to much about it till then, just try and enjoy myself and do what I can to get others to do the same.

[Illyria]

Einstein was a genuis. God doesn't exist, after going to a catholic school for 7 years teaches you that. Ive never worried about death. My only quake about it would be the people i leave behind. Maybe its because i'm a lazy sod and not existing seems far easier. As far as i can tell, dying of any other thing than old age is very painful or very hard and time consuming to set up, so I'm gonna leave old age do the trick and try not to think to much about it till then, just try and enjoy myself and do what I can to get others to do the same.

NO Flaming of religions here! 

EDIT: and about that aging thing, Could be cool, I always wanted to reach 113 or 666 years  Would be wicked  As long as there is still metal around

[LARAGORN]

I would verture a guess, that most every man goes over that debate in his head. Sometimes if it happens in the 40's or 50's it is the begining of the infamous 'Mid life crissis'. Death can be the inspiration for a lot of amazing achievements, as well as some very embarassing situations  I think the root of it all is the thought of leaving without a trace, a legacy if you will. The notion of being gone while everyone around you lives on, giving your life not so much as a second thought has varying effects on people.

In some cultures you are taught from birth, that if you follow thease teachings you will have eternal life and spend it in paradise. What happens if you break away from that culture without having a replacement belief structure? Most grab the first thing that comes their way, wether they believe it or not. It gives them something to belong to and be a part of, and ends the isolation and confussion of being alone that comes with walking away from what you were raised to believe.

This can also be a great oppertunity to find out exactly who you really are, and what it is that you do believe. Read all the books you can on the many choices there are, and figure it out for yourself. The more you learn, the more you know, not just about the subject but your reactions to it.

I guess all I can say is welcome to reality, I hope you enjoy your stay.

[Quitarias]

Well i doubt a mid life crysis happens to 14 year old's.That discusion about non existence is actualy what turned me from a road of assholeism to a road of thinking quietly a lot.
It's actualy hard to explain but rationaly i know that non existence doesent matter because it doesent exist.While i know this and have debated myself to mental damadge on this i still fear death like nothing else.Im not scared of standing up to people roughly twice my size, im not scared to interfere in a fight or anything else that might physicaly harm me but not kill me.
But if there is a chance of death then im scared like hell of that.Sooner or later you learn to live with that fear and accept it.Somehow you just grow complacent with it and it becomes part routine.The most important lesson i learned from that though is to question simple answers and cherish what you have.
Well its kind of late and im not at my best after midnight.

[Feline Prince]

If your willing to cross the road, but not lie in the middle of it. Your in the right state of mind to live happily.

[seperot]

I do not fear death, i fear old age...


I fear the fact i will lose control of myself, be in pain, and need someone to help me do anything.


Nothing to fear in death since its gonna happen sooner or later... you may or may not get old but your going to die

[Induane]

I fear the fact i will lose control of myself, be in pain, and need someone to help me do anything.

I don't think that anyone really wants to be a burden on anyone - I definitely don't want to either.  When I get older I hope that I can keep going without the need for external care.  I also for certain do NOT want to be kept artificially alive in old age.  Here at a young age where recovery is more useful I'd say hook me up, but in my final throws I at least want to go dignified and in the manner of my choosing. 

Well i doubt a mid life crysis happens to 14 year old's.

Or even a 23 year old.  I doubt its a mid life crisis, I've quite the happy adventurous life, and I do feel wanted, needed, and special.  I guess the issue is that I feel like coming to terms with death so that I can quit worrying about it perhaps? I'm not even actually certain myself.  Its a tough subject to think about and even harder to discuss sometimes. 

I guess all I can say is welcome to reality, I hope you enjoy your stay.

Perhaps, but I think I've been here for a while, just perhaps with an overly optimistic outlook.  I think I'd like to keep that though.  Losing it would feel like dying early.

Nothing to fear in death since its gonna happen sooner or later... you may or may not get old but your going to die

I hope that its later... I wonder if as we age our brains adapt to come to terms with death a little bit better.  I can only hope.

I think the root of it all is the thought of leaving without a trace, a legacy if you will.

I am most concerned with leaving everywhere I go a little better than I found it.  This won't get me any real legacy, I'll be forgotten for most of it, if not all, but hopefully somewhere along the way I'll do something small that grows into something worthwhile, and that that will make life worth living.  I think I can live so long as I think I've had a positive impact.  Its just that I feel like I can do so little sometimes for the world.  To big of aspirations I suppose.

What happens if you break away from that culture without having a replacement belief structure?

Well, thats a tough question.  I'm not so sure I'm that far out of what I've always believed, its just that I've never been concerned about it before.  Its like I kept alive a misconception intentionally to avoid facing my own mortality, and just couldn't keep it up forever.  I wasn't raised to believe anything in particular, instead I was raised to try to see the world through different eyes and try to understand the perspectives of everyone I am engaged with so that I would have the tools to decide things on my own.  I think the problem is that the world is too complex for me to ever gather enough data to arrive at a conclusion that will feel concrete.  I'm drowning in the ineptitude of the lack of capacity of my minds ability to comprehend.  Hit the limits I suppose.

Einstein was a genius. God doesn't exist, after going to a catholic school for 7 years teaches you that.

No, going to Catholic school though MIGHT teach you that God doesn't exist in the context in which they claim and believe.  I can't look around the world and think that God doesn't actually exist, I just can't see that some are destined for Utopian afterlife either.   While I've always questioned the nature and existence of God I think I question his nature more.   In the end though the question of his existence is less important to me than my own existence, in my own selfish way.  Sometimes I try to step back  inside myself and I feel like my conscious is trapped in a shell that I cannot escape from.  Even wretched by the most powerful emotions it is my body that won't listen to my brain.  Strong emotions for me feel slightly detached in a way I cannot explain.  I remember hearing the story of the holocaust survivor who saved his classroom full of students during the Virginia Tech shootings a while ago.   My face contorted, my eyes teared up, I felt sad, angry and a whole host of other complex emotions and varying shades between, but my conscious sat back away from it, watching myself in these throws of emotion as if I actually felt nothing.  That was somehow quite scary for me.  And when its happening I think, am I the only one who is like this? Then I feel that gut feeling of horrible guilt in my stomach, and my consciousness quietly observes it with mild intrigue at best.  Sometimes I think my mind is a fucking robot.

[John80sk]

I've had similar thoughts, didn't have to wait for the mid life crisis though... well, I've always said I doubt I'd live past 30, but still, I don't think it counts... er, anyways.

Non existance is something that terrifies me, used to keep me up as a kid, contemplating what it really was like not to exist.  I tried to stop thinking entirely, meditation wasn't something entirely new to me being brought up buddhist, but still, reaching that state isn't something that's possible for most of us.  In my thoughts I obviously came to the realization that death was like nothing else, as it was nothing, you can't contemplate not contemplating, it just doesn't work that way.

Over the years my thoughts on the matter have continued to evolve.  Now, the main thing I've wrapped my head around is the fact that we never cease to exist if you look at the universe as a whole, we existed, and therefor exist as we exist on the timeline, we just percieve our existance in a linear fashion.

Another thing that's plagued my thoughts is existance itself.  What exactly are 'we'.  'We' change all the time, with every new thought, every new bit of knowledge, ourself is modified.  Some modifications are more extreme, lets say one day you're shot in the head and lose your higher reasoning skills, are you still 'you' at this point?  In the end, is death really the end of 'you' or is it simply another modification?  Our bodies over time will decompose, be obsorbed by other creatures, and eventually become someone else... so, do we ever really die, or are we just modified?

I'm not sure why I obsess over this matter so often.  I've come close to death more than once, and never was really afraid of it then.  It's not so much fear when I think of it any more either, it's more just thinking, as if solving a problem that can never be solved.

[LARAGORN]

I think I should have been clearer. I said;

Sometimes if it happens in the 40's or 50's it is the begining of the infamous 'Mid life crissis'.

I am saying that it is much more common at that age. I went through this thought proccess at the old age of 17, or there abouts.

[hitancrias]

The fear of dead is just a form of fear of the unknown, and I believe that's something we should fight if you truely want to be free. Dead shouldn't be avoided at all costs. The problem might be that for people who want to live a significant or heroic life, a death for the greater cause might be overly appealing. Luckily, the greater cause is usually much more helped if you stay alive for it. Danger and the chance to die should be treatend rationally, but risks shouldn't always be avoided. I participate in traficr, even though I know traffic is the biggest cause of death for people of my age (besides homicide).

I fear the fact i will lose control of myself, be in pain, and need someone to help me do anything.

I don't think that anyone really wants to be a burden on anyone - I definitely don't want to either.  When I get older I hope that I can keep going without the need for external care.

I never quite understood why people want to stay independent so badly. Independence is an illusion, we all depend on others, at every age. If you accept that fact, it's just a matter of degree. People tend to keep some kind of mental accont though, if you are no more dependend on others than the other way around, you can feel independend. I guess this way of thinking is culturally determined. In other cultures they don't economize caring for others as much, but incorporate it in family life.

My face contorted, my eyes teared up, I felt sad, angry and a whole host of other complex emotions and varying shades between, but my conscious sat back away from it, watching myself in these throws of emotion as if I actually felt nothing.  That was somehow quite scary for me.  And when its happening I think, am I the only one who is like this? Then I feel that gut feeling of horrible guilt in my stomach, and my consciousness quietly observes it with mild intrigue at best.  Sometimes I think my mind is a fucking robot.

Nicely worded. I've exactly the same thing, now and then. Sometimes about serious things, sometimes about nothing. I feel very compassionate and emotional and also very apathic in the same time. It's a bit unreal, your mind watches and is intriged at first, but later it gets the overhand again. It especally happens when I'm tired, or when I'm already worrying or feeling guilty about something else.

Now, the main thing I've wrapped my head around is the fact that we never cease to exist if you look at the universe as a whole, we existed, and therefor exist as we exist on the timeline, we just percieve our existance in a linear fashion.

Nice point of view. In any case much better than the "you don't truely die, because you live on in minds of your beloved". That would only temporally solve the problem, because everybody gets forgotten sooner or later. I also like the idea of staying alive in the consequences of our actions. That's why I want 10 kids.

Another thing that's plagued my thoughts is existance itself.  What exactly are 'we'.  'We' change all the time, with every new thought, every new bit of knowledge, ourself is modified.  Some modifications are more extreme, lets say one day you're shot in the head and lose your higher reasoning skills, are you still 'you' at this point?

As you state it 'you' is a time varying concept. So if we were to talk about the real you, I guess it would be the 'you' you are at this very moment. The question is however, if something that last only an infinitely small moment can be considered real. Also it would be quite incompatible with an afterlife. Which version of you would make the jump? The last one? Would be sad for the people with Alzheimer's...

In the end, is death really the end of 'you' or is it simply another modification?  Our bodies over time will decompose, be obsorbed by other creatures, and eventually become someone else... so, do we ever really die, or are we just modified?

In that definition, using the toilet would be the same as partially dying. Nearly all off your cells have been renewed a few times in the time you live. With every breath of air you take, you recycle the same atoms used by many others, alive and dead. In that sense, dying is not so different than living. The way I see it is that we all share the same material resources, yet we live our different lives -on top- of that.

[Myriel]

Well, if nobody would die, the world would be overcrowded. Or there were no children anymore, only a bunch of very, very old people who talk about "good old times". No change, no new ideas, that would be pretty boring. Death is a part of life, and it's good like that.
I only hope to lead a long and good life, that one day before I die I can say I'm happy with it. And that I don't have to lie in hospital for years in old age connected to 1000 machines without being able to do anything. That wouldn't make life longer but only dying.
Life is dangerous, it ends always deadly...
You shouldn't think about it all the time, that changes nothing.

[Parallo]

Lets hope that the theories about Quantum Immortality are right.

I love this part of the article,

See also:

    * Pseudoscience

[John80sk]

In that definition, using the toilet would be the same as partially dying. Smiley Nearly all off your cells have been renewed a few times in the time you live. With every breath of air you take, you recycle the same atoms used by many others, alive and dead. In that sense, dying is not so different than living. The way I see it is that we all share the same material resources, yet we live our different lives -on top- of that.

I tried to be a bit less crude, but yes, that would be my point