Error in Quest Logic (Real I tested it)

[Moniker]

Greetings from an Alpha Tester

    I have a previous post that about this that was dismissed as "newbie gone wrong" so I have to say this
is pretty satisfying. The previous post was in this Forum on May 24th with title that started "Possible Problem
in Harn's Metal Working ...". I even suggested a test be done to determine if there actually was a problem.
Well I did the testing myself, since I knew there was a problem, even if the forum moderators weren't going
to take this alpha tester seriously. I am not a 16 year old male with a brief attention span. I have a 4 year degree
in Applied Math and 17 years experience with a high tech company as Computer Operations Supervisor.

Here is the problem again and what I found out.

The Problem:

 I've been playing the game 11 days. Since Monday May 14th. I went straight to Harn's and asked for a
quest. He gave me the "Learning Sword Making" quest. I thought this odd since he was asking for
2 steel stocks and I had read somewhere in a guide, that he would want iron stocks or something.
But, I didn't know any better, so I played until today. I just tried to learn metal working, and to my surprise
I was told by a player when I asked someone for help, that I needed to have equiped a book from the Harn
quest "Learning Metal Working". Well, the funny thing is I can refine iron ore into iron ingots, and I can melt
iron stock into melted iron and convert them back to iron ingots. The problem is I don't get any practice points
for doing it. I've played 10 days and know what to expect in the way of getting practice points ! My Metallurgy
progress bar is all the way green and I can't progress even to lvl 1 unless I get practice points, what
am I to do ! I worked very hard in those 11 days. I've reached level 150 strength, 100 agility, 9 mining, 7 weapon
repair, 80 intell, and I can't offhand remember the rest, but my other stats were fairly high for a beginner. Please
don't tell me I'll have to create a new character and start over!

PS - I have 2 other quest's that involve Harn, The Vresa Sword Quest and the Thorian Shield Quest
      These would seem straight forward but, Harn won't take the Vresa note or the Thorian Shield
      when I try and give them to him. The dialog returned to me is "Harnquist doesn't need this" or
      something very similar. Would these be effected by my problem with the Metal Working Quest?

EDIT - May 25th 2:00PM EDT
     The first 2 replys miss the main point here, the first quest Harn gave me should have been "Learning Metal Working"
but it wasn't. I never completed it, didn't get the book, and didn't learn the book. YET I CAN STILL REFINE ORE AND
MAKE IRON STOCKS(yet I get no practice points). I shouldn't be able to do this.
     
                                       Can anyone help me with this ?
                                       My Character is "CELILL MONIHUDE"

What I found out by testing:

I created 2 new characters.

Character Number One:
    Went straight to Harn and asked for a quest. First quest was give me 2 apples.
    Second quest given, get me some gold. I halted that character at that point since it differed entirely with my
    characters experience.
Character Number Two:
   Went straight to Amidison and asked for a quest, and was given "Amidison's Command". Character Two then
   went to Harn and asked for a quest. Harn gave this character the "Learning Sword Making" quest.

   I did not have the time or desire to further test to see if I could refine iron and make iron stocks, without
having completed the required quest "Learning Metal Working" and learned Metal Working from the book
I would have been given. I don't think I should have to since my original character who ran into this problem
had already done that, and found that it could, but that no practice points were awarded.

My conclusion: This is a real bug. In some cases, if you don't do the quests in a certain sequence, the
Quest Logic that assigns quests will assign incorrect quests. Refute me if you can.

   If you do not at least spend some time researching the more complex problems your alpha testers encounter.
What are we really doing just playing a buggy game, for fun? Do you maintain a database of problems encountered
and proposed solutions? Or do the moderators answer questions with whatever comes to mind from thier experience?
I realize that the team is composed of unpaid volunteers, but the process of aquiring knowledge about possible bugs
from your most important resouce, your alpha testers, should be changed to a more methodical and professional
proceedure.

                                                 No hard feeling, just helpful input, from an Alpha Tester.

[Aerianna Kzin]

PS - I have 2 other quest's that involve Harn, The Vresa Sword Quest and the Thorian Shield Quest
      These would seem straight forward but, Harn won't take the Vresa note or the Thorian Shield
      when I try and give them to him. The dialog returned to me is "Harnquist doesn't need this" or
      something very similar. Would these be effected by my problem with the Metal Working Quest?

FYI a common mistaken, I know it annyoing but if you have an open quest with a certian NPC (ie. Harnquist) he will not respond to any other quests involving him untill you finish the one for him.

also I am not a crafter so please don't quote me on this..but I *think* you have to have the making metal-or whatever-book in your mind slot to get anywhere... that said if your main char seems bugged about getting the correct quest to get it..I suguest going around it and ususing the one you created that seemed to get the quest, get the book and then pass it on to your main char, that way he has the book. but like i siad i am not sure if that it is, I dont craft sorry my only other sugestion wolld be perhaps don't craft with this char. but if that's what you wanted to  do... 

[Jeraphon]

My conclusion: This is a real bug. In some cases, if you don't do the quests in a certain sequence, the
Quest Logic that assigns quests will assign incorrect quests. Refute me if you can.

It's not a "real bug."

Harnquist has many quests. Several do not require a pre-requisite (and some do.) As such, he assigns the ones without the pre-req, or with the completed pre-req, at random. Every NPC, before assigning a quest, waits for you to accept it. Nothing was stopping you from saying "no" to the quest, and there is no penalty for doing so. If you'd like to do an ACTUAL test, try asking Harnquist for a quest multiple times, and saying "no" each time. See if he gives you the same quest each time.

The first 2 replys miss the main point here, the first quest Harn gave me should have been "Learning Metal Working"
but it wasn't.

WRONG.

[Lanarel]

Some comments/remarks/suggestions:
- making a new thread because after one day you did not get the answer you hoped for will not help you get it any faster. I bet most of the people who could take the problem seriously had not even seen it in such a short time, because they are generally spending there time fixing old and new things, rather than reading every post in the forum
- for reporting bugs, there is the bug tracker, and I can tell you that bugs are tested where they can, assigned to the proper persons, and fixed. Just to give you an idea: since the release of the current client (Feb 7 2007), 400 bugs were added, to the bugtracker, and 463 were closed. Many of the bugs were quest related, and a large portion of recently closed bugs werefor quests. I suggest you add your bug there (with the detailed information), so it can be brought to the attention from someone who can look at it. You find the bugtracker herebugs.hydlaa.com
- Only playing this game for 10 days, and spending most of this time in-game increasing your skills, I can understand that you are not aware of the pace at which things happen here. I suggest you relax a bit, have a beer in the tavern, talk to people about other things than levels adn enjoy the game.

Besides that, thank you for describing the bug in such detail. Hopefully, it can be fixed easily, but I am afraid that it is mixed in with all other quest-getting problems (see hundreds of posts in a few other threads), which already are being looked at.

[Moniker]

Thank You Lanarel
   I have sent in Crash Reports when I have had crashes, Didn't know about the bug tracker. I should have
used it, and only asked in the forums if anyone knew of a way out of my characters immediate problem.
I will try and relax, and yes, have a few beers ! It's just that a few reply's which have missed the mark,
have come from people who seem to know it all, Sometimes it's hard to tell the real team members from
the want to be's, you can't always tell from name and "title" unless you've dealt with them before.
It can get you upset if you think your problem is being discounted.
                                 
                                 Thank you again, and i'll take your advice

Reply to Aerianna

   Ah, My first actual helpful reply and from another Alpha tester, not a moderator! I'll try your suggestion.
maybe it will help my current main character and I won't have to create a new one. However, I would like
the PS team to test and fix the Quest logic.

Reply to Jeraphon First Part:
  
   Yes, it is a real bug. Harnquist does give out many quests, but the new player will always take the first
quest he/she is given 99% of the time. If a player takes the Amidison's Quest before taking a Harnquist
Quest he/she will recieve the "Learning Swordmaking Quest" and will get screwed up when they try and
advance in Metallurgy.
  As far as your comment about an actual test. I did do an "ACTUAL" test. I tested to see if a player could
get screwed up progressing in Metallurgy if he/she accepted the Amidison's quest before they went to
Harnquist and accepted the quest offered.
   You seem to not like my post for some reason and want to find faults with it. I don't know what a
WTB Member is but if you are part of the PS team your reply wasn't very helpful and you missed the
point of the post. How can I make my point any clearer so that the The PS Team acknowledges the
bug, looks into it and either forces he/she to go to Harnquist and ask for a quest, before going to an
NPC an recieving a quest which will interfere with Harn's quest progression or revise the quist logic so
that Harnquist gives out quests in a prioritized way, i.e. don't give out Learning Sword Making before
Learning Metal Working, if doing so hinders a players ability to to progress in Metallurgy.

Reply to Jeraphon Second Part:

    Here you go again, not paying attention to the point of my Post. I was not "WRONG"
 I mis-stated, I should have said "Harn should have given me "Learning Metal Working" before
me gave me "Learning Sword Making" this was from my original post, before I did any "ACTUAL"
testing. At which point I became aware the Harnquist gave out preliminary quests before offering
the "Learning Metal Working " quest.
   It's like you are trying to dismiss the poster's problem and justify the Quest logic as it is instead
of thoughtfully maybe asking the Alpha Tester for some clarifications, if they weren't clear enough
and trying to see if there was and ACTUAL bug or not and trying to help get it fixed.

             No hard feelings to you Jeraphon, you're attitude is similiar to others who have answered
a lot of questions and "know more" than mere newbie Alpha Testers

[bilbous]

I think the point Jeraphon was trying to make is that metalworking is not a prerequisite for sword making. I believe you can specialize in one without consideration for the other. That would mean the bug is not a quest bug but a skill bug. You can always work someone else's stocks or sell the stocks you make. Smelting and molding does not give pp's for sword making in any event. It may be that anyone can melt iron, it might be you have some metalworking experience from character creation. As far as I know you should have to have the book to smelt but perhaps you could borrow someone's book and see if you get pps for smelting while using it.

[Moniker]

Reply to Bilbous

   Thanks for the input, Aerianna suggested that I have one of my test characters give me thier book
which I could put in my mind slot and that would fix everthing. My second choice is to buy steel stock
and give it to Harn to complete the Learn Sword Making quest, I wanted to make them myself but
I can't advance in Metallurgy until I can get my Metallurgy practical points, which currently don't register.
I don't need Sword Making practical points. After I get complete the Sword Making quest I can probably
clear out my Vresa and Thorian quests, which would make me and the GM's happy. I didn't get the warning
to not aquire more than one or two until after I had several which I couldn't complete. I want to progress
in Metallurgy so I don't just want to buy * stock.

                                                   Thank you for your input.

[Jeraphon]

Yes, it is a real bug. Harnquist does give out many quests, but the new player will always take the first
quest he/she is given 99% of the time. If a player takes the Amidison's Quest before taking a Harnquist
Quest he/she will recieve the "Learning Swordmaking Quest" and will get screwed up when they try and
advance in Metallurgy.

Again, your logic is flawed. It makes no difference whatsoever if you took Amidison's quest - or any other quest - or not. It's RANDOM. If the new player takes the first quest 99% of the time, that's not the fault of the quest system.

[Moniker]

Jeraphon

    My Logic may be flawed, It sounds like, somehow, you know something about the Quest System
I apoligize if you are an official PS Team Member or Fourm staffer, but, if you're not, and have aquired
that knowledge second hand and haven't the offical blessing of the PS Team, I'd rather these comments
come from one of them.

Again, My point being, in some way quest order or not, I can refine iron ore and make iron stock
without ever aquiring the Metal Working Book and equiping it in my Mind Slot. Should I be able
to do this ? I have been told not, maybe I was misinformed.

                                       I will as suggested by Lanarel, in the future post to the bugtracker

[Karyuu]

Jeraphon is a member of the Settings team, so he works with quests very closely.

[Raleigh]

Might not be a bug, but it is certainly something clearly classifiable as a flaw from the current alpha quest system. And getting all over defensive when somebody points a flaw, whether using the correct technical terms or not, will not make Planeshift go much far or much successful. This overtly defensive attitude is the thing that really annoys me here, and something that should be thought about, perhaps acknowledging the problems is better than dismissing somebody who points them based on nitpickery about whether it is a bug or just some design flaw that should be fixed in the future. If all everybody said was "this is a great game", how could it be improved?

But perhaps it is something for "General Discussion", as design flaws and faulty alpha placeholder systems are not actually bugs, but things to be improved.

[Jeraphon]

Well what do you propose? That I make learning metal working a pre-requisite to learning sword working, despite the fact that someone might want to be a smith and not a metallurgist? Vice-versa? Should I have the learning sword working and learning metal working require all of Harnquist's other quests as pre-requisites? (This would, of course, constitute a "failure" in Moniker's eyes because it would require that he gets gold ore first.)

I'm listening, people. Let's hear what you want.

[Lanarel]

Suppose after designing a complex system of quests (in order, with many npcs with there own  background) and finally adding many dozens of them, all you hear is "the order is wrong", "I cannot get that one, and that dwarf could", "I have too many quests with the same NPC", "I discarded one of those quests and now I cannot get it again", "Now I cannot discard this quest", "I want in that winch thing" and then someone tries to be helpful by accidentally mixing up a possible crafting bug (do you need that book for smelting?) with part of the standard questing list. I can imagine Jeraphon acting a bit defensive after focusing on the quest part

Which does not mean that the crafting part is not possibly a bug. After being added to the bugtracker it will be tested and assigned to someone who knows the crafting part of PS.
The randomness of giving quests may be added there too, as a feature request, which will probably not be looked at until more urgent quest problems are solved. Actually, I think it would be better if new players got the harny is hungry quest when they start and not the 'how to do the last part in a crafting process' as well, but implementing that is more complicated than it may seem.

p.s. I am doing at least ten of the BD quests at the same time, getting stuck everywhere, and still loving them a lot. Great work!


p.p.s. While I was typing Jeraphon posted. I guess you are asking for what I suggested as feature request I would not want it made impossible to only get a later part of a process. Bilbous very clearly described how that could be useful. But it may be nice if there was a way to know you are skipping parts. For example, when getting asked if you want to learn to make a sword, that harny also tells you you need to be able to get some sword parts/or stock things (I am not so into crafting swords ).  ANother thing is giving quests to players who are clearly not ready for it. Ask someone for difficult stock, when they can hardly walk to the apple tree to get some apples. This might be done by requiring some skill before giving a quest. FOr example, you should at least be able to make stock, before you can learn to make swords. I understand that these kind of changes are not straightforward to implement, and no priority, but I think it would help prevent some problems

[ThomPhoenix]

Harnquist: Greetings adventurer! Instead of living that uncertain existance, don't you want to learn a proper trade?
You: No.
Harnquist: Fine, less competition for me anyway, eh!
You: Yes.
Harnquist: Good! I could teach you the noble art of sword making, but you will need to bring me an iron stock before we can commence. Shall I give you the proper tools to make one yourself or will you acquire one otherwisely?
You: buy one
Harnquist: Very well, talk to me again when you have one!
<You have received Sword Making quest>
You: make one myself
Harnquist: Very well, I shall teach you how to make one yourself. I will need some iron ore, do you know how to get that?
You: No.
Harnquist: Inexperienced eh? Doesn't matter, I'll teach you how to mine it. Let's start with getting a gold ore as a mine is very nearby.
<You have received the Gold Ore quest>
You: Yes.
Harnquist: Good to hear you have some experience already, come back to me after you have mined 10 iron ores!
<You have received Learning Metal Working quest>

[Jeraphon]

Thom, as hot as that looks, quest scripting doesn't work like that. Maybe one day engine will allow us to do that, but until then I can't. I can only work with the tools I have.

ANother thing is giving quests to players who are clearly not ready for it. Ask someone for difficult stock, when they can hardly walk to the apple tree to get some apples. This might be done by requiring some skill before giving a quest

Making a skill prerequisite can't be done yet, and it's been talked about a lot.

However, your point has been noted about asking for difficult stock at the same time as asking for apples. Therefore, after discussing it with the settings team, learning metal working and learning sword working (as well as his other quest) are now going to be randomly assigned after you complete TWO prerequisite quests. Have a nice day.