Is Black Flame holy?

[Nikodemus]

That is a good one
Often, for the sake of simplicity, people aren't really precise. They won't say blessed by Talad or Laanx weapons are more dangerous to diaboli than any other. It's obvious for all people in Yliakum thet things by Talad or Laanx are holy. But for example if weapon is blessed  by Vodul, maybe it isn't dangerous? Or holy refers to all true gods, not made up, or falsly believed?
You will never really know who.

[Raleigh]

For the diaboli, I think that the definition of Richard Dawkins about what is religion becomes literal, because for them, religion is a virus, and their reaction to holy things is only one of the symptoms of their unique disease. So I suppose that for some weird  reason, their bodies do not react well to people blessing stuff, regardless of being on the name of real or false gods. Or perhaps all known religions have some tradition of using some kind of substance to bless an object that is toxical for the diaboli, making people have the false assumption that is the fact of something being "blessed" or "holy"  that makes them vulnerable, who knows if the gasses from incense aren't deadly for them, for example?

[Under the moon]

I have debated this issue of 'holy' before. It can not be anything the gods create, or Diaboli would not be able to touch glyphs. So, it must be something created in such a manner to impart special powers on such an object. Perhaps 'holy' objects would have to have part of a god's very essence (or soul) imparted into them in a non-magical way, making holy or blessed objects not magical, but godly. As such, these objects could only be made under very special conditions, such as a god giving part of its power, or in a rite that steals part of that god's power. A third way could be to bring an object to a place that is already imbued with a god's power and absorb some of it.

Another way an object could be holy is if it is imparted with power from the people themselves in much the same way as the example above. A 'holy' man could place part of his own being in the object, dedicating it to a god. However, this -could- mean an object could be holy without being blessed or dedicated to any real god. Take Boon for example. He thinks there is a god of carrots, so learns the rights of how to make his hoe 'holy' by imparting part of his being into it. He does so, and now has a holy farming tool with the ability to harm the Diaboli.

Or, 'holy' might mean something all together different, and be a seventh way that people only assume comes from the gods.

Religion itself is -not- holy, or no Diabloi could belong to any religion.

Holy would then have to one of those. Power of the gods, power of the people, or a power appart from both, but assumed to come from the gods.

So... Is the Black Flame holy? If it is a god, then perhaps, depending on if a god's essence is what is harmful to Diaboli. If it is not an actual god, but a piece of Laanx's being, then perhaps it is holy, being a sentient object. If it is a creation of the people without anything to do with the gods (creation by belief), then it may be holy that way. In the end, it depends on what path the devs choose.

[ThomPhoenix]

For the diaboli, I think that the definition of Richard Dawkins about what is religion becomes literal, because for them, religion is a virus, and their reaction to holy things is only one of the symptoms of their unique disease. So I suppose that for some weird  reason, their bodies do not react well to people blessing stuff, regardless of being on the name of real or false gods. Or perhaps all known religions have some tradition of using some kind of substance to bless an object that is toxical for the diaboli, making people have the false assumption that is the fact of something being "blessed" or "holy"  that makes them vulnerable, who knows if the gasses from incense aren't deadly for them, for example?

No, that's way too far-fetched. Diaboli are very vulnerable to holy weapons, simply because the power of the gods, Talad or Laanx, flows through it. The reaction of the Diaboli against this deistic power is stronger than with other races. It would be nonsense to say that an item is holy "because it's holy to you" and then be able to slay every Diaboli with it.

Aside from that, Diaboli feel uncomfortable in religious places, but they don't die when they get near them. Diaboli can in fact visit temples.

[bilbous]

I have to wonder why they would be susceptible to any 'Holy" effect of the PS realm. While I haven't reviewed all the information about them currently available, it would seem to me that their condition came with them from where ever they came from and would have to do with items consecrated to whichever gods ruled there. Thus they would only be affected here by things brought or summoned from the other realm from which they originated. It might leave them with a significant phobia about "holy" things of the PS realms but no real vulnerability. Likewise, I would think the race that is vulnerable to precious metals would be so due to some isotope peculiar to their origin and not necessarily that of Yliakum. I doubt this viewpoint will prevail but it could be taken into consideration.

[saamu]

Since holy is a point of view and has not been denied as an official stance by Jeraphon, how can a whole race become vulnerable to anything holy, sacred and blessed, if they don't recognize it as such in the first place because they don't follow either of the three gods?

The point that a particular person does not recognise/believe in a particular god does not means that the particular god doest not exist.
As in the dark ages almost everyone did not believe that the earth is a sphere. If the god in question does exist then any item holy, blessed etc of that god will be imbued with the power the god. If the relic is that of a false god (in an absolute sense) that the item will have only its inherent power.

As to the whole race being vulnerable to blessed item, it would be simply that the race is the children of a god, children created from the same matrerial hence sharing similar gentic material. It should not be difficult for another god to create a weapon or item designed to target these children.

[Raleigh]

Since holy is a point of view and has not been denied as an official stance by Jeraphon, how can a whole race become vulnerable to anything holy, sacred and blessed, if they don't recognize it as such in the first place because they don't follow either of the three gods?

The point that a particular person does not recognise/believe in a particular god does not means that the particular god doest not exist.
As in the dark ages almost everyone did not believe that the earth is a sphere. If the god in question does exist then any item holy, blessed etc of that god will be imbued with the power the god. If the relic is that of a false god (in an absolute sense) that the item will have only its inherent power.

As to the whole race being vulnerable to blessed item, it would be simply that the race is the children of a god, children created from the same matrerial hence sharing similar gentic material. It should not be difficult for another god to create a weapon or item designed to target these children.

Why would a god want to wipe out an entire race? From the available information, I don't think the gods of Yiakum are "nazis"(not sure about Laanx though), so there must be another explanation that does not involve godly-sanctioned genocide.

Although the idea of the substance used in the rituals to make items "holy" being toxic to diaboli and remaining on the holy item sounds far-fetched, I think it can be an interesting possibility and quite surprising as well if it was truth, because probably most would think instead that it's because the gods dislike the diaboli or because the diaboli dislike gods so much that it provokes an adverse reaction or something. It is something like what the idea @Parallo suggested on another thread:

People often attribute the disease known as SMID syndrome to Laanx's wrath but I disagree. It stands for Sudden Madness and Instant Death. We often see people spout crazy incoherent sentances or do otherwise rediculous things then fall to the ground dead. I think this is an entirerly natural phenomenon and it being attributed to Laanx is just old wives tales.

[Zan]

How about we just see holy as a result from the crystal way magic enchanting of an item?

Everyone is clear on the basic six: crystal, azure, blue, red, brown and dark. All these magic ways have glyphs and some can be used to enchant weapons like the red way being used to make a flame or fiery sword, the blue way being used to make a frost or icy dagger, etc. Now the crystal way can be somehow used to make holy weapons.

I think you guys are trying to bring reality into this part of the game a bit too much ... remember it's just a fantasy game world with abundant magic around and things do need a name.

[Feline Prince]

Then how come Diaboli can use crystal glyphs?

[Jeraphon]

All these magic ways have glyphs and some can be used to enchant weapons like the red way being used to make a flame or fiery sword, the blue way being used to make a frost or icy dagger, etc. Now the crystal way can be somehow used to make holy weapons.

Nothing in settings has confirmed this. In fact, close examination of the magic ways suggests that only the Red Way can be used for enchantment. Of course it's up to my department to decide whether or not that will change.

[Quitarias]

Well first of all i think we need to find out if in Yliakum "Holy" is just a belief question.
Or if holy weapons DO have something difrent about them physicaly.
This is a question to the settings department.Unless its answered basicaly we can keep saying the same arguments over and over for another few pages.

[Jeraphon]

This is a question to the settings department.Unless its answered basicaly we can keep saying the same arguments over and over for another few pages.

Something tells me that no matter which answer we give it'll get rerouted to the Complaint Department.

[Feline Prince]

Well its kind of important for people RPing Diaboli.

[Protos]

Hippocrates, a Greek physician of the 4th and 5th centuries BC, has stated that virus/disease is not a visitation of the gods but rather a cause of the earthly influences.

Is it then fair to say that vulnerability to anything holy, sacred and blessed is not a virus or a disease?

While not believing in a particular god does not make that god non-existent, is it fair to say that such a god or anything related to that god would not be recognized as holy, sacred or blessed by those who do not follow him/her?

Is it reasonable or unreasonable to say that as long as a particular god and religion is holy to a group of people or a race, it is then holy to everyone else, whether they acknowledge it or not? Does it then make a statement that "holy is a point of view" false?

If the settings state that it is rare to find a Diaboli inside a temple, apart from the imprisoned ones, does that mean that temples have prisons or are they solely used to imprison and punish Diaboli?

Thanks.

[oningo]

Hmmm... how about..... its a game  . Settings team cant closely and minutely define philosophy, theology, socialogy, linguistics, political science, inter race relations, race anatomy and peculiar bilogical functions, physics, chemistry and every other subject that we experience in real life. Diabolies get affected by holy magic according to what i read on race profiles. Deal with it. If black flame is an uncertain element let settings decide....and until then dont rp that...change it to laanx or talad. Else everyone would want minute details. Work with what settings have told so far. If its unclear dont rp it for now.  Work in the space created. There will always be gaps in the ways the world is and how it works. We would then need to hire the oxford and cambridge unversities..and each department therein would have to give a 1000 page report on what each realm of life should be in game and the explanation behind it. Mostly techniacal at that. Good thread. Black flame considered holy like laanx and talad or unholy maybe? for game reason. Maybe a different section in forum for real life discussions...would be adviced. Alll this attempts at theology, sociology and stufff can be discussed there. Cos it looks like people forget its a game.

 Settings has tried ....now rp with whats given. many things are there..more real issues can be risen..like .. "oh when a person dies how can his body possibly go with clothes and inv to death realm! not possible! and if it does not..oh! then why does it decay so fast!? are there new bacteria that decays a dead body fast!? so does food spoil fast too!! how to preserve it!??" ---> things like this can also be asked...but they arnt cos we know its a game  .

The discussion seems to be more in the realm of theocray and spiritual studies. Maybe a post in a new section of forum called "real life"..in which new boards called "physics" "chem" "sociology", "philosophy" , "phychology"..etc.. etc...are created. I am no expert on most of these matters as i havnt specialised in them....but i see none of others have either by the posts here. If an expert on such a field sees it....i am sure he would laugh his/her guts off. Its a game. RP with what settings give. But yes definatly would like to know if black flame is considered holy in case of a diaobli and a black flame priest have a confrontation. Its a game. its a game. Work with what settings give. If a real meanigful discussion on religion and other real life issues are needed take it else where...and i strongly recommend people reading atleast 5 books of different authors who are known to have dissimilar ideas in aparticular field before such a discussion. else prattling an author's viewpoint and not coming to ur own conclusions after reading many books is really the most unintelligent thing to do.

PS: Strongly recommend a new section in forum dedicated to subjects of real life, after seeing ample evidence in posts in this thread and many other threads, players wanting to have ametuer dscussions on real life matters. Else discussions on PS would always end up being discussions on subjects of real world using PS as a template