The RP environment (thinking roleplaying rules)

[Muzzy]

Hello,

As a new player with a strong RP MUD background I find the parameters of
roleplaying in Planeshift very confusing. I'd say less than half of the people I've
met even respect the division between IC and OOC in what they say. Out of the
people who didn't use "words" like "lol" and "computer" in their every
sentence, less than one in ten seemed to have any desire to interact for
any other reason than making those numbers in the "stats and skills" tab grow.

This is in stark contrast to much of the documentation both in game and on the
webpage, claiming things like "The game is about roleplay...".

I am aware of the fact that the game is in alpha stage and things are far from
finished. I understand that the developers might be more concerned about
making things work right now than acting as a police force to change the
behavior and attitudes of the players. However, I would like to get some kind
of idea what the goals set by the developers for this game are before making
the decision whether I am going to stay and help out as a playtester and
perhaps in development, or if I should just look for my roleplaying experience
elsewhere. Honestly, based on my experiences so far, anything resembling
serious roleplaying is not possible in Planeshift.

I know there is (was, according to some) a strong RP base in the game and all
kinds of plots and events were organized. Many aspects of the world seem very
good and well thought out, including the races and the death realm (always a
hard thing to explain and justify). The character creation for instance is
much better and with a better roleplaying feel to it than what most RP MUDs
have to offer.

But on the other hand everything seems to indicate that roleplaying is to
be taken in Planeshift as something that you are allowed to do "if you are
into that sort of thing", without real purpose, meaning or support. The
policies seem to limit any roleplay into the "harmless" level, disallowing
character development in everything (especially ethics, morals, ideals and
prejudices) except for some quirks and funny way of speech. There is no support
for allowing player-driven world development, rather everything seems to be
set in a way that you cannot affect other players or their experience at all
in a larger scale. There doesn't seem to be any effort to enforce roleplay on
any level.

These are difficult questions and it is not my intention to criticize the
decisions the devs make. Building such a place on one's spare time,
based on the principles of open source (mostly) is no small feat and I respect
it greatly as such, and on some level I understand if the devs just try to
attract the maximum number of visitors to see their work. I do believe however
that the ugly truth is that the "We offer everything for everyone" is not a
concept that works in the long run and some hard decisions have to be made at
some point. Rather than being disappointed sometime later in the future to
realize that the promise for roleplay was not given seriously, I'd like to ask
what kind of roleplaying environment the developers are really after.

If the case is that roleplaying is left without support as something optional,
I believe it would be appropriate to change the webpage to reflect the
contents of the game more accurately.

Thank you,
Muzzy

[Raleigh]

You were at the wrong place and at the wrong time, because there is definitively roleplay in Planeshift, even though a multiplayer game of Neverwinter Nights with the DM Client sounds more RP-intensive for now. It's unfortunate that there is a batch of people that make their characters speak like if they were in IRC or another messenger alongside all the 100% powerlevellers( 0% Roleplay), but they are not the only ones in Planeshift. About the complet lack of capability to change and "put your mark in the world", I believe it's a question of lacking development rather than a design choice, and SOON(TM) it shall be changed, allowing guilds and perhaps even individual characters to potentially have influence and fame over the world of Yliakum, to build their own cities in the depths of the Stone Labyrinths and beyond.

[Mirecet]

I think Muzzy is more meaning to address the fuzzy rules and guidelines regarding Roleplaying in PlaneShift. As it stands now, players seem to be encouraged to RP (like the map-loading message that says "you are in a medieval world, roleplay your character!"), but are not required to.

Muzzy (we've been chatting) comes from roleplaying MUDs (Multi-user dungeons, something like a text-only MMORPG) where the rules clearly state that a new player will learn to roleplay in that world, or be asked to find another place to play. There are certainly plenty of alternatives out there for players who are not interested in roleplaying. Entire worlds (A Tale in the Desert, Voyage Century, Lineage 2) where there is no roleplay to be found, despite having a rich setting in which to do so.

Some of PlaneShift's descriptions say that it is an immersive roleplay space, but I am not immersed at all when the bulk of the players around me respond with "It's just a game, get a life" when I am trying to RP with them. With the current set of ambiguous rules and guidelines, I have no way of responding to such a statement other than to avoid that player. Roleplay can be  a powerful and magical thing, but it is also a fragile thing, easily diluted and broken. We enforce the rules on character names being appropriate to the settings, perhaps we should also ask that character behavior also be settings-appropriate.

Going to the movies comes to mind as an example- we have rules there- we are not allowed to disturb the other participants, we allow them to become immersed in the experience. If one could attend the movies without any rules, with people chatting about outside things and running about shouting and generally making it impossible to really connect with the movie, those who wished to truly experience the films would go elsewhere.

I think the non-roleplayers generally see roleplayers as being overly protective of their style of play. As I noted above, we act this way because because it is a fragile thing, not becuase we're a bunch of sensitive artists (though I am one ). I think perhaps the non-roleplayers often don't understand our point of view because non-roleplay is a robust space, one not easily disrupted. If people roleplay near a group of non-roleplayers, their chat is not going to detract from the non-roleplayers' enjoyment of the game.  Eyes might roll, and side comments might be made, but those players will not feel motivated to seek out a new place where they can actually play the game, the way roleplayers must when the roleplay is disrupted.

My two cents    I am in favor of some RP-only space being created. Obviously one needs to allow leeway for newbies, and do one's part to teach those who need assistance.

Having created such a space though, we also need to decide what the boundaries are. Muzzy tells me that one is required to play in-settings (duh) in the MUDs, and that includes going along with what another character may be attempting to do to yours. If one is not comfortable with some issues in the RP, one takes it to OOC discussion for a resolution: "Ok, your character does this brutal thing to mine and runs off. We'll pick up from 10 minutes after the event and go back to IC" I googled a few sets of MUD RP rules and it looks pretty straightforward, but with any consensual space of the imagination, it requires maturity in play. Perhaps it is that aspect the the current PS rules are hung up at. With PlaneShift being free, we do have a lot of youth playing.

[Muzzy]

Hello,

I intentionally tried to avoid any "this is the way to do it" rhetorics in my post. I believe the devs do know ways to push the game into the direction they want it to go and if they do feel like they are missing the methods, I am sure the community is more than happy to share their ideas if asked.

Perhaps the problem is that I don't speak MMORPG fluently, not coming from the culture. So let me use an analogy to clarify how I personally see the situation.

"Hey Muzzy, we have this group of guys and we are going to play football (real or the american version, doesn't matter) this weekend. We have this great field reserved just for us, the grass is great and the scenery is awesome. Wanna join?"
"Yeah, sounds great. I love football. See you there."
When I arrive at the place, there is a very nice field alright (although slightly under construction, but I knew that was the case) and it is full of people. But most of these people are seriously drunk, running around mindlessly, shouting "lol, rofl". Some are camping, some barbecue. Some just attack others randomly without a reason. Someone has set tents in the middle of the field. One goal is missing and the other is broken in pieces.
"I thought we were going to play football.."
"Yeah, see that one guy behind the tent? He has a ball. Oh, you just missed him. You looked at the wrong place at the wrong time."

Now, I am asking the people who own the field and organized the whole thing, "are we seriously going to play. This doesn't look like it.". If the answer is no, I am probably going home. I might come back every now and then, when I feel like drinking beer with my buddies and maybe even pass a ball back and forth a few times, but I am not going to call it "playing football" nor do I think it should be. If the answer is "yes, but we must respect everyone's right to camp or pass out wherever they want.", excuse me if I remain sceptical about the prospects. You don't need many tents or people sleeping on the field, or even playing some other sport, to ruin the game. If the answer is "yes", I think something needs to be done, because as it is at the moment you really cannot play. I might volunteer to fix the broken goal. Even if it might take a few years to get there.

So, I am asking.

Muzzy

[bilbous]

You better get your money back from whoever you reserved the field from or learn to enjoy bouncing balls off of drunkards heads. Better still take your ball and head off out of town where there are large areas where you can play in which you will see someone only once in a while. High traffic areas are not the best place to hang out, you may even run into several other types of footballers, your ball may be round but those other guys have an oblong ball and the ones over there are having a big circle hug around theirs. That doesn't even consider the lacrosse, cricket and paintball players who might be around.

[Seytra]

First, let me express that I thoroughly share your feelings, Muzzy. Second, through the time in PS, I've have had to accept that the answer is "yes, but we must respect everyone's right to camp or pass out wherever they want.", IOW, the tenor is, as bilbous already expressed, "everyone has their own way to RP, regardless of it's objective quality or utter lack thereof" (to the point where it is considered RP if someone claims their "character" is driven solely by the desire to become stronger, for whatever non-reason), and "it would be nice if people would put OOC in brackets". Obviously, this is almost identical to "No.", so RP in PS is only slightly better off than in for example Lineage (where it is more or less just tolerated), and in general it's the RPers who must seek quiet places to remain undisturbed. Luckily (or does that only emphasize the issue?), the tavern is such a quiet place most of the time, since it houses no important trainer or merchant, nor MOBs with phat lewt.

[Raleigh]

     I do not know if this is only a misconception of mine, but from the first time I entered in Planeshift, roleplaying seemed to be overall much better than what it is now(And don't go with those cheap jokes "It is because you weren't here before" ). Probably because many good RPers I knew left Planeshift, and no matter how the argument goes that it renews, I still miss them for now because until now I saw not much on that matter("For each 10 RPers that leave, come 6 l33ts, 3 godmodders and 1 RPer" is my current impression).

     If I have one remark to make, is that godmodding sometimes become rampant, and the aforementioned IRC-like talk with "LOL", "plz" and alike expressions are the main problems related with such trend. Many of such problems seem to come from those who for a funny reason or other play PlaneShift for PvP, even though its PvP is mediocre, instead of PlanetSide or other game specifically designed with interesting PvP.

     As godmodding is a very much debated issue and making rules about it may lead to ambiguous interpretations and potential abuses and unfounded accusations, perhaps there should be at least some iron fist against the excessive use of "LOL" "LMAO" and alike beyound brackets in MAIN for anybody besides newbies*, because unless it is clearly defined as OOC or on tells, it tends to annoy any one looking for a serious roleplay experience. I wait for the day the ignore_list will not be needed to be used constantly if one wishes a believable roleplay environment.

*Democracy is the rule of the majority, if the majority is made of "l33ts" and "N00b PKers" for example, then it won't work fine for MMORPGs that strive to give the "RP" acronym a true significance. So it's time to make things harsher, specially now that the quality of roleplaying in Planeshift apparently is continually degrading, specially due to some supposed "roleplayers" and "roleplay-focused guilds" around, I won't point names as people know when they are doing something wrong, that does not matter much. What matters is the situation apparently getting worser as the community slowly degrades, and something should be done to raise the roleplay quality of PlaneShift, because for now, I would rather recommend Neverwinter Nights Multiplayer than Planeshift for people trying to find roleplay.

[bilbous]

I do not know what constitutes objective quality in role play, extremely poor role play is fairly obvious but many of the role players seem to think it is perfectly to fill in the gaps in the settings with whatever nonsense they know is not going to be within the ultimate settings but justify it as a grey area. Others get away from that by replaying endlessly the same tired old soap opera themes, keeping within the settings but never using the tools the game system provides.

If you think back to where role playing games started not one of them offered a system where people went around and did meaningless stuff and gained no benefit from it. In every one I ever saw (dice on the table games) all had some system of character development and the idea was to do things to advance your character within the confines of the rules and the settings the scenario defined. Nobody played a serf who stayed home and did nothing of note.

Part of the problem with MMORPGS is in fact that the mechanics are too static. You cannot bend the rules with the dungeon masters grudging approval, you can only do what the game lets you. A lot of people try to get around this by pretending things happen which really do not, this is a form of god-modding that requires the agreement of all participants but to me it is not real role playing as you are stepping outside the constraints imposed by the system. It is like telling the gamemaster that his villain did not just cut off your head by rolling a natural 20 (d&d reference) because your neck is monstrously thick even though you are a normal human and that is what vorpal blades do to humans when the wielder rolls a natural 20.

So unless there can be some consensus as to what constitutes appropriate role play, tolerance must be the key.

[Raleigh]

@Bilbous

       The problem with the overabundance of meaningless(and boring too) roleplay is that besides the level treadmill and some quests which fun factor is arguable, the game doesn't offer much opportunity quite now for a character to be a true hero with a meaningful existence, there is no way to exerce influence, to build or shape parts of the world in Yliakum by characters, and this truly makes roleplay using the game engine itself incredibly limited. About the serf's example, somebody tried to roleplay being an Octarch once, to do something meaningful besides tea time chat, and it ended in a heated discussion about its nature being godmodding or not. Adding to that the mentions that people are supposed to roleplay "normal people", I suspect this game may be intended for what in other RPGs is meaningless and uninteresting. We want to be adventurers, war heroes, villains, powerful people, legends or perhaps hilarious types and not a bunch of common people chatting, because those things can easily be found in real life. If PlaneShift is intended exclusively for such type of Roleplay focused on the activities that in any common RP section are given to NPCs because of their uninteresting nature, then many of the people @Bilbous define as, roleplayers, those who wished to go beyond chit-chat, would leave as well.

[bilbous]

This is why I stressed tolerance.

* bilbous is Canadian, does it show much?

[Raleigh]

But should we tolerate people constantly using "lol", "wtf" and alike without brackets in MAIN chat? I don't think so.

[Rayken]

The Keys, IMHO, are in fact tolerance, balance, and rule by example.  Tolerance is crucial as we do not have the means to enforce Role Play at all times, nor do I think the devs want that.  (I say enforce--they do want to encourage it at all times).  Sometimes you need to go easy on people to give them the chance to learn.
Balance is also a must.  Bilbous, I find your definition of godmodding quite restrictive, but I do see your point.  However, if we all RP'ed entirely within the confines of the engine at all times, we would do nothing but kill, mine, and craft.  I'd rather play a drunk, thanks.  I see nothing wrong with playing a hero if you like, but it had better fit in with the settings and it had better be a well developed character, preferably with an interesting flaw or two.
Rule by example is perhaps the most important.  No, there are no rules against being OOC.  However, it is an offense to disrupt an RP.  So RP as much as you can, and people around you will learn by your example.  If they disrupt it with OOC comments, send a polite /tell asking them to stop.  Don't be surprised if you have to explain what they are doing wrong.  If it keeps up, send a /tell to a GM or make a /report.  Action taken will of course be up to the judgment of said GM, but you've done what you can, and spread RP awareness.

Muzzy,
Best analogy ever!  Some days I feel like that as well.  But other days it's like reading a really good novel that I just can't put down.  I've spent hours playing characters involved in just entertaining social situations (yes, the soap opera aspect...it's fun), or in crazy plots.  I'll admit it is somewhat hit and miss.  You sound like a force of good, so I'm asking you to stick around for a while.  Pop in game every once in a while and see if you can find and/or create some RP.  In the long run your efforts will likely be appreciated and rewarded (By good RP).

@Raleigh
Did you turn off your chat filter? If not, you shouldn't even see things like that.  If so, why?

[bilbous]

There is nothing to prevent you from playing a drunk if you want, just remember to keep going back to brado's to buy your spirits, actually imbibe them and find some way to pay for your habit. It may be that kada-els will also sell you some once the barmaid npc is fixed but drinking imaginary ale is kind of cheating. Do it if you like but that is what I think. Heck you can even buy them from some bootlegger if they want to go get them for a profit but spirits are in the game and you should respect that.

[Raleigh]

If not for the PG rating, I think "potheads" would be possible to RP too... Zak could sell the grass in his hideout in the *spoiler* 

[bilbous]

Speaking of drinking why is it you cannot sell beer to gold miners? do they not get thirsty working there? and the ulber slayers what is their excuse? I suppose they might have their own...