The RP environment (thinking roleplaying rules)

[Under the moon]

The big problem (going back to the football feild anology) is not that they are people on the field who do not no how to play the game, or even that there is a game going on. It is that there is no fence around the park, so anyone can come from any direction, completely missing any rules of conduct that might be posted. All that they get is a small note that tells them there are rules somewhere... But all they see is a big whoscow of a party, so they think that is what the field is about. When in Rome...

The solution is something in Character Creation telling people what is expected of them in no uncertain terms ("The use of 'net talk' (lol, OMG, etc) is severely frowned on.). Equate this to a gate on the field with the rules stated in plane sight.

Second, there would be newcomer villages where you originally start the game based on what you chose in CC. NPCs and players would be there to guide you through the things you need to know (game mechanics and expected conduct) in a quest-like format. Call this the dugout.

That would solve a great many problems.

[zanzibar]

Muzzy, you are exactly right.  Not only is there no one enforcing the rules of staying IC, but anyone who complains about someone else going OOC runs the risk of being mobbed by their peers.  Attitudes are so lax that I've even seen GMs going OOC when they're facilitating roleplay events.  When I made a stink about it, I was attacked, which makes this following statement a little ironic:

The Keys, IMHO, are in fact tolerance, balance, and rule by example.

[Karyuu]

You've received a true, and very nice, explanation of why GMs sometimes use OOC when they run roleplay events. You weren't attacked. Don't exaggerate, it gets you nowhere here.

Sometimes a clear and correctly bracketed ([]) OOC clarification is needed to help some players who might have missed IC comments, actions, or character descriptions to understand what is going on.  For example, treating a street begger as if they were a highly respected and wealthy member of society may derail the RP and cause more confusion among other players.  Just as sparingly-used OOC text can clarify confusion in any player RP, it can do the same in GM events, but even more since GM characters are often treated differently than player characters for OOC reasons.

[zanzibar]

You've received a true, and very nice, explanation of why GMs sometimes use OOC when they run roleplay events. You weren't attacked. Don't exaggerate, it gets you nowhere here.

Sometimes a clear and correctly bracketed ([]) OOC clarification is needed to help some players who might have missed IC comments, actions, or character descriptions to understand what is going on.  For example, treating a street begger as if they were a highly respected and wealthy member of society may derail the RP and cause more confusion among other players.  Just as sparingly-used OOC text can clarify confusion in any player RP, it can do the same in GM events, but even more since GM characters are often treated differently than player characters for OOC reasons.

I was flamed by Xillix and Vengeance, both of whom are dev leaders.  I'd be able to produce quotes of my own, but the thread was conveniently deleted.

Hilon's post was not satisfactory.  The problems he used as examples have solutions that do not require going OOC.

[Karyuu]

Xillix and Vengeance were commenting on your complaint about typos. It's entirely unrelated to this thread, so my comment to you here stands.

[zanzibar]

As does my response.  Hilon did not make the case for going OOC.

[Nurahk]

His case was that sometimes it was needed, that's pretty obvious and understandable.

As for other GMs, I don't thing they are supposed to go IC at all.

[Raleigh]

I already know what to conclude about that thing, lets leave at that. Now back to the discussion here.

I played for quite some time a MMOG that had a "noob island" where quests were used in a tutorial form to teach people on how to play, and also gave you a nice headstart (In fact you could gain several levels by simply doing the quests), instead of starting in nowhere without nothing in your inventory. Those elements really add some finesse to any game and make things easier for everybody. Now as UTM said, what we really need is something like that, but also with some OOC hints about roleplaying. It might be a challenging concept, but a roleplaying tutorial would really help with many things if properly done, I suggest part of its content as IC, and part of its content as OOC(to explain in-game the concept of roleplaying, and with the brackets, of course). This really will make a huge difference on user-friendliness regarding Planeshift.

[Nurahk]

I agree with that.  As long as it's not too long.

Movement passed!

[Who says I'm self-important?]

[zanzibar]

His case was that sometimes it was needed, that's pretty obvious and understandable.

Is it, though?  Can you think of a situation where a GM participating in an RP event has no other choice but to go OOC in public chat?

[Raleigh]

     I think a tutorial shouldn't be mandatory, but messages should really recommend a new player to go through it before going in game, just like in many games I know. I don't like the idea of forcing everybody to pass through a "roleplay tutorial", unless it is completely seamless in relation to the rest of game and looks like a natural part of it on its composition.

    I mean something like a NPC talking to you just as you arrive who you can ask questions to(Perhaps using a system like Oblivion's - choose subject you want to ask about, then type the IC message of your character - ,because a significant change on the way NPC chat currently works is also very important for user-friendliness, as really effective chat AIs are very far from ou reality), and then this NPC will recommend him to talk with another NPC. While that OOC messages would them appear explaining detailedly the controls and such, among pieces of roleplaying related with the occasion where your character is(also a good moment to teach /me and /my), perhaps a quest could involve going into the pub, and then the NPC said you could ask for a beer and he would pay for it. Then a menu would explain to you to think whether your character does not drink alcohol or not, and give the appropriate answer like "Sorry, I do not drink", or "No, but thanks for the offer", as an example of a roleplaying tutorial in context with what is happening. I know it is no easy deal, but this is definitively something to look for, but I think this is more of a case for the wishlist, perhaps.

     With a tutorial and clear warnings in-game about the roleplaying nature of Planeshift, also there will be no excuse for the noob who insists on using LOLZ, ROFL, WTF and such on main chat and without brackets. Perhaps a smaller part of the tutorial on its ending about godmodding and how to avoid doing it could also be implemented, to make things even more clear.

    And lastly, closing the gaps around the Settings will really contribute indirectly to improve the overall quality of roleplay, because then the grey area will become smaller and smaller, making things much easier for those wishing to involve their characters in those and difficult for those who intentionally exploit these areas to conceal godmodding.

[Hadfael]

Just a few thoughs I had reading this thread:

LOL : reading it Laugh out loud can be read not as an OOC comment deserving [] in all cases. Since the number of emotes is limited it's most of the time a "/me laughs loudly" typed quick in the chat for an immediate reaction to something that was said/done IC. When done this way, I don't see it as a 13375p34|< expression but as a character reaction. Something that don't break the immersion.

Other expressions you mentioned including the F word are forbidden since PS takes place in a civilised place and since everyone is asked to be polite and use a language suitable for every kind of players. "wtf", "stfu" and such are without hesitation vulgarity that is not to be tolerated even used IC. Not only are they disrupting the RP.

Roleplaying within PS rules is not to write pure english literature (something non english natives like me could hardly do). I think that's why I take no offence when reading "BS" instead of "Broad Sword", "DR" for "Death Realm" and other abreviations. Those abreviations are making the chat more fluent and lowering the constraints for being a skilled typist.

So there too there is a range between what's reasonable, questionable and excessively disrupting. If RP is meant to force players to be typists then it's disrupting the immersion by adding constraints to what you can/can't type.

Now, about the "newbie area" where people would have to learn about RP before they can interact with other players:
It appears that the best way for a new player to learn about PS roleplaying is to chat with other players. throwing newbies into a community instead of grouping them together increases the chances that the first players they meet are used to PS and not only other newbies unaware of Yliakum and its ways.

What about the stat raisers, OOC chatters you can still meet in PS?
It is true that they can find more things to do at this point of the game developement. They can gather money, train stats, practice by camping NPCs and such. The game mechanics allows them to do so. But you are also allowed to RP with other players and nobody has the right to disturb your RP.

Having a forced "learn how to" phase when starting the game is not a bad idea. But I am less sure that communication with NPCs using multiple choice pre-defined answers is really immersive. in Oblivion, that you mentioned, there is only 1 role you can play from the start; a prisoner destined to save the world (TES unique scenario). Depending on your character, you could answer a "Yes/no" question is many ways. "Yes", "yep", "why not", "I'll do that",  ... And neither the implemented AI nor a multiple choice can allow that. That's why it's much easier to talk to real people. Forcing an unaware newcomer to interract with others to find his way to the sewers is the PS way to make one learn RP and IC chat. Warnings about what's allowed and not being OOC themselves, they take place in /motd and /tips when loading areas. that is in OOC part of the game mechanics. Isn't it fine this way?

Settings and game mechanics are the petri dish. How the community uses it depends on players themselves. To make sure the RPing community is the one people are willing to enjoy instead of taking part to a PvP stats contest, reinforce it with your own RP.
There will always be players willling to play against the system, against others, against RP regulations. Forcing everyone to conform to a single scripted RP only for those is giving them more challenge and adding constraints to RPers. Since the goal is to allow the roleplaying community to build the IC society the orientation of the devs and GMs is more into giving more freedom to roleplay than to force it in a single direction.
A noble goal not yet achieved but since many players like you are concerned and involved at an early stage of game elaboration, a goal that will probably be achieved.
Aside a few flames you would have to ignore, be sure that you don't risk anything in making improvement proposals to the parts of the rules and settings you think are missing or unclear.

[Suvok]

LOL : reading it Laugh out loud can be read not as an OOC comment deserving [] in all cases. Since the number of emotes is limited it's most of the time a "/me laughs loudly" typed quick in the chat for an immediate reaction to something that was said/done IC. When done this way, I don't see it as a 13375p34|< expression but as a character reaction. Something that don't break the immersion.

I don't really agree. When you're having a sensible, role playing conversation, I see it as breaking the atmosphere when I see a

(Excuse the cheesy and lousy example)

Player 1 says: Hello old friend, how are you
Player 2 says: Never better, a bit peckish though. And you?
Player 1 says: I'm so hungry, I could eat a live trepor
Player 2 says: lol


  Perhaps there can be a filter on this like some other phrases in the future. For example, at the present, when you type in OMG, your character says "By the gods!", so when you say LOL, wouldn't it also be possible to trigger a /me laughs loudly command?

Also, there is a difference between slow typing and lazy typing. When I see DR, thats OK. When I see BD, thats OK. When I see "Sell 30K 2.5/ 50/50 BS" in the Auction tab, I think: Lazy typing.
Honestly, even for a slow typist, it doesn't take that long to write a couple of words about 5 letters long.

Also, what so people say about the words Wibble, Soz and Plz in IC?

[socia]

DR and BD are acceptable as there is Death Realm and so, but slashes and so aren't I'm for new skill > identification, you won't see stats of weapon until you are able to identificate it. [pushes stats more away from IC]

another terrible thing is death in planeshift, talked many times. Lots of people started to do this > if you loose duel you don't die until you ropleplay it, you are wounded and you stay away from happenings for some time (min 24hours) problem is that these days nearly noone accepts any rules...

[zanzibar]

LOL : reading it Laugh out loud can be read not as an OOC comment deserving [] in all cases.

BS.  You should always use some variant of /me laughs instead of LOL or ROFLOL.  LOL is ugly, distracting, disruptive, and unnecessary.

Since the number of emotes is limited it's most of the time a "/me laughs loudly" typed quick in the chat for an immediate reaction to something that was said/done IC. When done this way, I don't see it as a 13375p34|< expression but as a character reaction. Something that don't break the immersion.

It breaks the immersion.  Saying "But it's easier to type!" isn't justification enough.

So there too there is a range between what's reasonable, questionable and excessively disrupting. If RP is meant to force players to be typists then it's disrupting the immersion by adding constraints to what you can/can't type.

Give me a break.  You don't have to be a "typist" to avoid using LOL.

Settings and game mechanics are the petri dish. How the community uses it depends on players themselves.

Wrong.  The devs create rules for how the community can use the game, and the gamemasters enforce those rules.