Evil and Organized

[Coastal]

Zan, my friend

    I am not trying to be some kind of IC "hero", or personally attempting to change the IC play in anyway. I am not
trying to incite any type of IC war. I have not been part of any guild, nor do I want to be at this time. I think guilds
are a good thing, but, you can get too much of a "Good Thing".

                  My post was just to generate discussion and provoke thought. In this I failed.

What I got instead is Dark Empire officers and supporters, defensively, nitpicking parts of the post itself instead of
a 2-sided discussion. I know the DE may be sensitive lately, because of recent critisism. My quotes may be old, but
they haven't been disavowed. The website may be old, but it's what is out there for the public to see. Like any
secret society, bringing attention to thier plans will only cause them to be shuffeled to "closed door sessions".
As Zanzibar says in a RECENT reply to my post,
               "There are secret societies that control everything.  You don't know about them, so don't pretend"

As Zan says in a RECENT reply to my post,
               "it is bad roleplay to use OOC reasons like websites and forum posts to start an IC war"

What? I am not trying to roleplay in my posts, and is not "official, for the public documentation, and public discussion
by leaders of a guild, reasons to support a reasoned statment regarding that guild? and I am not trying to start an IC war!

Let, me think a minute, Zan ? Zanzibar? Could these be Alt's of the same person? Just a thought ! Stranger things than
multi-headed beasts, have reared thier head.

     BTW - Off this subject, if you'll grant me this forum posting fauxpax, since you seem to like to bring it up as part
of your augument, I admire your Society of Vaalnor Roleplay model, as I do that of the Dark Empire. They both
have a place in the game. Your vision for the world of Planeshift may be different than mine, and there is nothing
wrong with that. Just be careful not to impact players that do not share your vision. If they choose to play with you fine,
but don't alter play for others.

                                                          Best Regards

[zanzibar]

I am not trying to be some kind of IC "hero", or personally attempting to change the IC play in anyway.

You fooled me.

What I got instead is Dark Empire officers and supporters, defensively, nitpicking parts of the post itself instead of
a 2-sided discussion.

If it's everyone versus you, then there are two sides:  Everyone, and you.

I know the DE may be sensitive lately, because of recent critisism.

If they correct a mistake or a misconception, how does that make them sensitive?  From what I've seen, they laugh off most of the criticism and correct people only as a courtesy.

I am not trying to roleplay in my posts...

You should make this more clear in the future, because you had me fooled.

Let, me think a minute, Zan ? Zanzibar? Could these be Alt's of the same person?

Yes.  Zan is one of my "nice guy" alts, and Shalmaneser is one of my "bad guy" alts.  Sometimes I have conversations with myself.  And "Zanzibar" is actually a shared account, thus my abrupt changes in personality and mood.

Your vision for the world of Planeshift may be different than mine, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I don't think the difference is in vision.  It's your methods that people take issue with.

[Zan]

Ah so this is meant as an OOC discussion .. like I said, you confused the heck out of me and I don't think just me

If this is a discussion then it's good because we are discussing. Like Zanzi, who is not me by the way .. no matter how much he'd like to be , said pointing out misconceptions on your part when it involves a certain guild they know well enough is just a part of that discussion. One side makes a statement, the other side disagrees .. if we're all agreeing here there won't be any discussion and nobody will learn a thing

Now about your last remark ... mind pointing out to me how I might be forcing other players to play things my way when they don't want to? If I'm doing it I'm completely not aware of this and would like to correct that.

A question for your discussion .. why exactly do you feel it's necessary for the good guys to unite against the bad guys? Are there so many guilds that seem to be threatening other's freedom to play in-game or are you mainly interested in a Good vs Evil War roleplay? Not judging, just curious.

[Raleigh]

The truth is out there... but also some interesting words @Sangwa already said regarding everything:

First: Any usage of D&D Alignments in this game is out of place. That means any tagging of the Dark Empire, or any other PS guild, using this alien alignment system is far from being accurate, whichever perspective you look at it with. We're not Lawful Evil, Neutral Good or Lawful Neutral.

Fourth: Our objective is quite simple. It has been called world domination before. However I currently put it in the following wording: to please our ambitions and attain whatever is within our reach. This means it actually depends on our virtues. And currently we've proved to be virtuous by most everyone's standards.

      Take your own conclusions from this old reply. And a last thing to mention, complaining on the fact a political organization seeks power is the same thing as complaining on the fact business seek profit and lions seek to eat anything when they're hungry. Remember that many "freedom fighters" ended up being pretty different as well once they achieved power. When we speak about political groups, things become very morally ambiguous. Perhaps somebody is trying to use the Dark Empire as a scapegoat to distract people from the real current threats. Watch your surroundings, the Dark Empire would have much to benefit on being completely secret if they sought simply a cabal to take over Yliakum... but there are other groups perhaps looking for that.

[Illyria]

Let, me think a minute, Zan ? Zanzibar? Could these be Alt's of the same person? Just a thought ! Stranger things than
multi-headed beasts, have reared thier head.

Somebody is paranoid, or someone is Schizo  Which will it be?

[Raleigh]

    Now we have conspiracy theorists mixing OOC with IC. Only one thing I can say for sure: Zan and Zanzibar are definitively not the same person. I know the name of Zan's other character, it isn't named "Zanzibar", but I won't tell it here. Lets try to improve a bit this discussion though, accusations of "x being y" won't help with that.

[Coastal]

          Zan, and Zanzibar, Please except my sincere apology. Not the way to make friends and influence people.

You judge me wrongly Zan, I said,

 "I admire your Society of Vaalnor Roleplay model, as I do that of the Dark Empire. They both have a place in the game."

You can't really fault me for saying that. I continue,

 "Your vision for the world of Planeshift may be different than mine, and there is nothing wrong with that."

You can't really fault that statement either, I continue

  "Just be careful not to impact players that do not share your vision. If they choose to play with you fine,
   but don't alter play for others."

  That statement is the one you had a problem with.

Zan asks:
  " Now about your last remark ... mind pointing out to me how I might be forcing other players to play things my way
when they don't want to? If I'm doing it I'm completely not aware of this and would like to correct that."

    Please excuse me, I was not clear enough. I did not mean to accuse your guild nor DE of anything, it was simply
a general plea, to all groups with a grand storyline for thier RP. I have not had my play impacted by any guild in
Planeshift, and do not know any character who has, although I have read about some, here in the forums.

   Forget all the BS I wrote about "Good Guys organize and fight evil, etc" in my first post. This discussion provoked thoughts
in me, and my thinking about the subject, has evolved, during the course of these posts. After all I was the only one posting
that was concerned (thus my comment, that my thought's had not provoked a 2-sided discussion. I don't count myself)
   We are all here to have fun and enjoy Planeshift. Let's not get too serious, even if you have spent considerable time
constructing the mods, that you find enhances your experience. It is after all, just a game.

           I have nothing else to add to this "discussion", and concede to the impeachable logic and wit, of the debators of
the opposing view.
                                  May the Azure Sun, brighten your day, light your path, and bring you immense Joy !

                                                                   

[Draklar]

The truth is out there... but also some interesting words @Sangwa already said regarding everything:

First: Any usage of D&D Alignments in this game is out of place. That means any tagging of the Dark Empire, or any other PS guild, using this alien alignment system is far from being accurate, whichever perspective you look at it with. We're not Lawful Evil, Neutral Good or Lawful Neutral.

Fourth: Our objective is quite simple. It has been called world domination before. However I currently put it in the following wording: to please our ambitions and attain whatever is within our reach. This means it actually depends on our virtues. And currently we've proved to be virtuous by most everyone's standards.

      Take your own conclusions from this old reply.

Especially in reference to "usage of D&D Alignments in this game is out of place":

Name: Gobble
Location: Any location with substantial covereage.
No. Appearing: 1-5
Frequency: Uncommon
Alignment: Neutral-evil
Size (h/w/l): 90x60x90cm

For those who wonder, the above can be found "in this game".
Take your conclusions.

The entire matter with the Dark Empire is becoming extremely annoying. Leave the fricking Dark Empire reputation to their PR people. It's their job, it's their part in the spectrum of Planeshift's role-play. Not yours.

I had my Magnir character called "evil" by some Dark Empire members and people somehow associated with them. Out of false accusations, in fact. Did I whine? No. Did I try to change their opinions ooc'ly? No. I took in-character measures to fix it.
If Dark Empire's ill reputation finds its way to the forums, well too bad. That only means their public relations doesn't do too well. What it does not mean is that you can turn the entire thread into Dark Empire argument.
If the name does not do them well, they can change it (and let's just point out the name originally did refer to the evil side of the empire).
If their behaviour gives them bad name, maybe they should change that too.
What I don't get it is why the same people over and over whine about people calling it evil. Neither of my two characters trusts the empire. Both have reasons to do so. Want to argue with me whether they have actually seen what they've seen? If so, too bad. I don't.

Also, for a change try role-playing characters that aren't meant to be "perfect" and extremely "open-minded". Not only are they boring, but it also causes this absurd ooc defensive behaviour.

[Raleigh]

    Now, back to the point of this thread. I really believe that we do not need a Caligula, Nero, Alexander The Great, Atila or alike to rally the forces of those who truly believe in altruism. What Yliakum needs on the "goody-two-shoes" side are people like Jesus, Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Malcom X and Nelson Mandela. Somebody who kills as constantly as a serial killer isn't the type that should be the "moral standard" for a "good guild". Being "good" isn't simply murdering "evil", it in fact lies much beyond that.

[Zan]

For a simple discussion people seem to get awfully upset here so I'm going to bail out as well.

For clarification though, Coastal, I don't have a problem with you at all .. I was just discussiing and my questions were meant. I was trying to understand where you came from because it didn't make sense to me.

  "Just be careful not to impact players that do not share your vision. If they choose to play with you fine,
   but don't alter play for others."

I didn't have a problem with this, I was just honestly curious if I really did act that way without knowing. Thank you for your compliments towards Vaalnor though but it was never my idea to begin with. Induane, Valbrandr and Lishom created Vaalnor, I just hopped on the bandwagon later on.

Draklar, just one thing ... when players engrave OOC ideas like "Empire = evil" into their character's minds then the influence of PR people like Sangwa, Nurahk and Hwnae here disappears. That is what I noticed to be wrong .. people do not judge the Empire by it's in-game behaviour but by it's OOC reputation, they'll expect evil in every act, even the good ones .. becoming paranoid beyond imagination. Either way it is what it is and I'm going to leave this thread at this point.

[Draklar]

Draklar, just one thing ... when players engrave OOC ideas like "Empire = evil" into their character's minds then the influence of PR people like Sangwa, Nurahk and Hwnae here disappears. That is what I noticed to be wrong .. people do not judge the Empire by it's in-game behaviour but by it's OOC reputation, they'll expect evil in every act, even the good ones .. becoming paranoid beyond imagination. Either way it is what it is and I'm going to leave this thread at this point.

Okay, just keep in mind you were asking for it:

IC Reasons

• The History: Throughout many years (or more likely ages) Dark Empire was in fact malicious force led by a Diaboli line all the way until the (cruel) empress Aelya.
• New Leadership: Sangwa is a politician-turned-thief. Not exactly someone people would easily trust.
• The Dishonesty: After the recent auction I "overheard" a private conversation between Donari and one of "PS nobles", in which her excessive greed and charlatanism became all the more obvious. Greedy merchant is a book example of "lawful-evil" alignment.
• Ill Ambitions: This is somewhat private, but as the idea was open to all imperialists, it could easily slip out - Dark Empire wishes its guards to induce fear. Not exactly virtuous behaviour.
• Excessive Violence: Dark Empire proclaims itself to be much like a family. Well, maybe it is, but surely a pathological one. Words of Nurahk to one of aspirants (said in semi-public place): "You raise your voice to a flame again and you'll be stuck in a cage for the rest of eternity." Threat of cutting off tongues followed. From Hwnae you could hear phrases such as "shut your trap", or "Be silent, aspirant! You will obey the order to stay your hand or you will face the consequences of your disobedience." While it may sound semi-harmless, let me just point out while speaking the second, Hwnae blatantly implied using his battle axes would be directly connected with the "consequences". And this leads me to another point.
• The Tyranny: Dark Empire began developing its laws. What one may find interesting is that while the laws clearly defend wealth of the Imperialists, further defending those in power from betrayal; There is absolutely nothing about condemning those in power for oppressing those below them (besides maybe one vague rule, which would easily be sidestepped by any lawful-evil character). I'm checking it for a while now, waiting until change to this shall be found in their library.
• Wicked Behaviour: That one was just way too obvious. Nurahk and another DE member laughing in a tavern about someone's death through plague. While the fact it was rogue they laughed about might be completely okay for them, the not-so-rich part of the society wouldn't feel okay with this (knowing stealing is a necessity, not a hobby). How can someone feel okay in presence of people who treat inhumane death so lightly? Also, it was a plague..? Quite frankly plagues take many lives. Is rogue being one of those deceased enough of a reason to laugh about it?
And that's just my observations. There are people who observed the Dark Empire for a far longer time than I did. I didn't feel all right with pulling out all this on the forums, but as I said: Forcefully implying no one has reason to consider DE as evil, is asking for one to be proven wrong. You're condemning people's characters here.

And before anyone says the above points are completely natural: Too many games. In real life many "merchants" are actually humble and honest people. People don't consider plagues funny and in past uprising was taken against rulers like that as soon as forces assembled. On the other hand, Alfred the Great, anyone? He achieved much for England and still was known as the "protector of the poor". There's no comparison between Alfred's England and DE, really. And still by D&D standards, Alfred the Great would be considered as lawful-

neutral.

Even in Planeshift the neutral people seem much more "good" than the Dark Empire as a whole. Threats and verbal violence most certainly aren't means people of Yliakum use to achieve what they need. Nor do they carry out so much of this shady business.

And I'm not upset with this discussion. I'm upset with how you try to dictate how people should role-play towards DE.

[zanzibar]

First off, Nurahk isn't a typical DE member.

Secondly, the history and background of the Dark Empire should be communicated in-game and in-character.

[Raleigh]

I think it's time to put things straight about one of the reasons(cultural in this case) why DE is viewed as "evil" with a simple comparison between our western PoV regarding good and evil and "political values":

     See the topmost corner? It represents authoritarianism, or in our case, something constantly associated with evil. When we speak about it we are speaking about a system of social control based on strict obedience to a form of authority with strong control of people's life by it, it also relates with police states, dictatorships, absolutism, oppression, obedience, loyalty till death. We westerns(the majority at least) certainly scorn the values associated with ideologies on this spectrum. From our cultural standpoint it can be quickly associated with the concept of evil. A coercive and oppresive organization subduing people's will and smashing their liberties won't be seen as a good thing.

     Now on the other diametrically opposite of the bottom of that compass lies libertarianism, where it is believed government shouldn't interfere with people's lives, and is supported the supremacy of individual rights and personal freedoms over any kind of authority, associated with freedom of speech, freedom of press, freedom of choice among others many of us are used with and even more(pro-legalization of marijuana among other liberal stances over polemic questions). This position may be filled with the so-called archetypes of the "Freedom Fighters", and promote their ideals of freeing a land from despotism or struggling to achieve even more civil liberties in an already mostly liberal environment. This people, in a quick glance, can easily be associated with the concept of good in our eyes(except if religious values go against their libertarian principles).

So here it sums up:

    Dark Empire is unarguably a very authoritarian organization, including on its own ideology, and from the OOC point of view of the majority of the Western World(that is sometimes very difficult to remove completely because of its cultural origins), being authoritarian equates with being evil, therefore the Dark Empire is "evil".

    And to make things even more accentuated, the commonly remembered connotations of the word "Imperialism" aren't very positive either, as they are related with ruthless conquer of foreign lands. The "Dark" is not the main  source of this view, in my opinion.
    "Ambition to achieve what is possible" and "World Domination" can be synonymous, if an organization becomes sufficiently powerful for it. And values aren't so solid at all on groups seeking political power. Ambiguous statements might make people assume the worst.

    An I will be honest, when I try to think how would the Dark Empire work once it became a nation, first things I remember are 1984 among other dystopian novels...


Words have power, Here is an Example:

    Norsefire is "good" on all its propaganda efforts, but in fact all its working lies on tyranny and oppression, and once a masked man comes to announce and broadcast the truth, things start to slowly change...

    But I see the Dark Empire more akin on its principles to other fictional group: the PlanetSide's Terran Republic, and it also is associated with evil while the "freedom fighters" of the "New Conglomerate" there are considered by its players as the "good guys".

    Now think about it: a dystopian empire isn't something so bad from OOC perspective, specially due to the fact things are currently very bland and uninteresting around Yliakum. We need some tough to overthrow oppressors so we can have some focus instead of wandering around chit-chatting. If the Dark Empire fails on presenting an interesting perspective on that, I would be tempted to push a straight-forward(no disguises of its nature) "Orwellian" guild to make something akin to a very small version of IngSoc, but more medieval.

    Finally, there are some "empires"(read: countries that seek domination) that use the values of freedom, democracy and liberty as pretexts to invade and "free" other countries ruled by dictators, but this is another history...

[Draklar]

Secondly, the history and background of the Dark Empire should be communicated in-game and in-character.

And it has been. But it's awfully annoying when in response to doing the above you see DE members scolding it in ooc threads. And if we don't want to drag in character stuff out of character, how about simply accepting how others role-play their characters, hmm? Personally when I see someone role-playing in a way I don't approve, I simply walk away. It's as simple as that. No need to make posts about how Planeshifters just have a need to see DE as evil (another thread). And obviously this thread wasn't meant to be what it has been turned into.
Also, Nurahk doesn't need to be a typical member so long as he takes a high position.

[zanzibar]

Dark Empire is unarguably a very authoritarian organization, including on its own ideology, and from the OOC point of view of the majority of the Western World(that is sometimes very difficult to remove completely because of its cultural origins), being authoritarian equates with being evil, therefore the Dark Empire is "evil".

This simply is not true.  The freedoms you love so much only exist because of the rule of law.