Are the Smelters of Gold Being Greedy?

[Vampire_Orchid]

Question on this same topic.

     I don't know if anyone else noticed, but there are furnaces in the arena is there not? You know...up by Veja. Why aren't they 'useable'? I don't understand, she's a smith and has all the 'stuff' needed to melt and so on near her. I just think it would make sense to open up that area for ppl to use. Err or is that in the works?

[Natrina]

Ok, let me get this straight.  You're using the term "unfair" to try and determine what prices something should be sold at?


Ha.

Uh, I'll suppose you're referring to Bilbous.

 Bilbous, if gold ingots and stock work in the same way silver ones do, gold stock shouldn't indeed make up for the effort of smelting it.

 In the end, gold isn't as rare as it in theory should be to make it have any value and it's useless in any other sense then straight selling. But PlaneShift's economy, at least in this point, seems to be made in order to fulfill the needs of individuals instead of creating a relatively realistic economic environment.

[bilbous]

I think it tends to favor the early adopters because they tend to find the bugs and balance issues that need to be dealt with, training metallurgy used to be much easier because more things gave you practice.

As for the stocks issue, last time I looked (not recently and not for precious metals at all) 10 ingots was worth more than one stock of the same material and that is just counter-productive.

[Jackdaw]

Just curious, what is the difference in the time factor between going to the mine for your 10 gold and buying 30 at the forge to make the equivalent profit? I suspect it would be at least 30 minutes of real time. Now what is the difference in time between digging a full load at the mine and transporting it to the forge with buying a full load at the forge? I suspect that buying at the forge, even at 500 would be more profitable in the same time than mining your own, although I do now agree that is somewhat higher than is absolutely reasonable. It is the digging that consumes the most time because it is one at a time and not always successful.

It really is economy of scale. The distance involved in travel to the mine is fixed and will always use the same amount of time. The time it takes to dig 30 ore is really not that much more than 10 depending on experience and knowing where to dig (though I know people will have differing opinions on this). So I agree that a trip to the mine for 10 ore isn't worth it. One trip to the mine for 30 ore is a different story. The added bonus of going to the mine is meeting people on the road and maybe saving a few people from ulbers on the way.

Having another furnace aound would be a big help. Maybe Harnquist has made enough gold now to afford expanding his place.

[bilbous]

It is really odd, the new gold mine is easier to mine than the old one and both are far easier to mine than silver. I've tried both the silver mines I know and if I average 1 ore in 6 tries I'm having a good day whereas the new goldmine if I am averaging 1 ore in two tries I'm having a bad day. Add to that silver ingots are less valuable than gold ore and it does not seem to make much sense. I think it would be better to increase the value of silver and make it more readily available and decrease the value of gold somewhat. And is it my imagination or did they increase the level to smelt silver to match gold? What is the point of that when silver is already not worth mining?

[ThomPhoenix]

The new gold mine is easier to mine because the old one is depleted and you can smelt silver from level 10 on. By the way, you assume you only have to flick your fingers and a miner appears to sell you gold. In my experience getting enough ores from a miner takes a very long time. By walking to the gold mine myself and mining there myself I make more money then when I would buy it from a miner. The gold price is just too high and the supply is too low.

[bilbous]

Fair enough and I do tend to speak in ideal terms, it just seems that whenever I am near Harnquist there are two or three people trying to hawk their gold. Certainly there are times of the day when it is just that easy. Perhaps the smelting is too easy as well. It would seem to me that iron, steel and bronze can have more impurities left in them but that precious metals are held to a stricter standard by the market and so might be required to be smelted 2-3 times before they reach their full value.

[drah]

Going off the settings, we should assume that Trasok can smelt gold, yet he pays for 240 tria per ore. 

Therefore, the going rate for gold ore is 240 tria... not 400 and certainly not 500.

The rate smelters offer... is higher than the standard going rate, and is therefore fair.

[Ennon Galita]

Wow. Yes, 400 per gold is standard rate.

look at gas prices, for pete's sake. $3 a gallon? thats ridiculous.

so, i blame the gas for the gold prices. 

just for the record, i sell all of my gold i mine at 380 /piece.

Heh...

[Raleigh]

    I am not a libertarian(on the US meaning of the word), but I have something to suggest: throw a proverbial "Ayn Rand" in the market of Yliakum - remove all the NPC merchants with fixed prices(Read: OOC Planned Economy), develop a very good batch of gold-based weapons or equipment with clear value alongside crafting support for all metals, lootable animal parts, etc(including rat parts of course), then let the players determine the final prices of everything through supply and demand among other factors. This will surely heat up things and solve this problem from once to all, or perhaps worsen it, who knows? Predicting a completely free market from devs intervention on a virtual economy might bring several results. But it is more interesting than having the end of most commodities as "vanishing" in the hands of NPCs who buy them always for the same prices.

[Kiern]

Ok, let me get this straight.  You're using the term "unfair" to try and determine what prices something should be sold at?


Ha.

Uh, I'll suppose you're referring to Bilbous.

I'm referring to anyone who does what I described.  No reason to single someone out when the same concept would be applied to anyone who says the same thing.

I mean...

eh

[bilbous]

Under those circumstances, a "fair price" is usually considered to be one where neither buyer nor seller are completely satisfied but both did well enough to claim victory.

[John80sk]

The miners are happy, the smelters are happy, I don't see a problem.  Last time I checked the gold mine ulbers weren't aggro, so that's not a problem.  If gold was being sold for more than 400 I wouldn't buy it though.  If all the miners decided to sell it for more I'd go mine it myself, and I think most metallurgists would as well, as it'd be more profitable that way.  All that means is that the miners who don't have the metallurgy skill have to sell it to Harnquist for 240...

The prices of gold have changed over time.  Started at 300ea, I used to pay miners 400 so long as they always came to me first when they had a load of gold.  Then when gold got harder to mine it went up to 350, and eventually to 400.  People have tried to sell it for more, but it's never quite gotten past 400 for a reason.  This is where the market has settled, and it's done so for a reason.

[wolfspirit]

 
  Lets think about this...When I buy an ore at 400...and sell it to an NPC for 608..then I only make a 208 profit...whereas if I mined it myelf and sell to an NPC..I make a 240 profit...sounds to me like it's the miner making out here to me..let alone..the miner also can get minning practice points which ,ofocurse, helps to level up his skill..so if minning and selling to another player gets the miner 400 tria and minning practice points...then to me the miner makes out just as well or better than the buyer. Maybe I'm wrong to some..but thats my option 

[Vampire_Orchid]

Me and a friend were talking in game. He has high MET and I don't. Anyways, it got us thinking. It
would make sense to charge 400 or even 500 for, drum role please...For Iron and Coal. Why not?
It's what's used the most and therefore has a higher value then gold. But in order to do something like that, the entire enconomy would have to be stripped and redone. However, the only problem with this is that Iron and Coal are harder to mine then gold. So it would be worth the time and effort, but we might be having this same debate about Iron and coal later on. Whether if the price of selling it should be raised or not, do to the fact that it's harder to  mine and so on. I think this 'problem' will be a never ending story.

     So I say, for now we should really be happy with what we are getting from the MET ppl for gold. Because really if you think about it, gold isn't worth all that much. The reason for it being so important right now is an issue that will more then likely be resolved soon. Maybe with the new client gold won't be a major factor in money making. Maybe, just maybe it will end up being iron and coal. Or maybe, there will be a better use for gold? Who knows. Either way I think this 'debate' is kind of pointless. We are really so fortunate to be able to sell our gold to higher ranked players and not just the npcs, and we are bikkering about it? So what if they make a little bit more profit? Is it not by now something they have earned? If not their right as seniors players or non stop players? I say Kudos to the wonderful ppl who have given me 400 for my gold. It's made my life a hell of a lot easier!

I mean if we are going to talk about this, then why not about the high prices of items being sold in auction channel? Isn't it their right though? Of corse it is. Just like the gold issue...same crap different pile!