Already underpowered magic has become even weaker

[Mhyrage]

You shouldn't have to max out your character before you're able to play the game.

What's the fun in just walking around being weak as hell? I don't care for sitting around and RPing all day. I like to kill things from time to time, and play around with magic.
Since I don't care for killing rats, my strength is 175. Since mana starts out amazingly low my intelligence is currently 120 and charisma 103. Since I gave this character a few OOC events his stats started off fairly wrong. I've spent about 200K and only one of my stats is above 120. I like to sit around and RP, but all day is too much. There's not too much else to do for now besides train or RP. The quests still lack an absurd amount of polish but I'm going to start doing them soon anyway.

[bilbous]

How is training not part of playing the game?

[zanzibar]

How is training not part of playing the game?

Who said that training isn't part of the game (besides Seytra and Under the Moon)?  My point was that you shouldn't have to do tonnes of grinding before having fun with the game mechanics.

[bilbous]

I happen to like killing computer ai, more so than killing other players. The trick is to find those critters who match up well enough without overpowering you. At the moment for me I am kind of stuck between gladiators, brigands and dark rogues on the one hand and ulbernauts on the other. the human types do not present enough of a challenge but pay fairly well while the ulbers are too hard and do not pay well enough. The only reason the humans pay well enough is that they cost next to nothing in healing, still I do not make enough to have any extra after paying for my next levels. Part of the reason I cannot get ahead financially is that I am trying to train too many things, ax, dagger, sword and melee, as well as three types of armor.

I would also like to train crafting skills but they tend to be too sedentary, i.e. stand here and shuffle icons around. Magic is sort of  the same but in its case it just isn't effective enough. my highest level in magic is 11 or 12 and killing one of the human types with it takes more mana than I have. Of course being a kran, I probably have more skill than I ought to, but it still is not definitively clear to me whether my theoretical limit is level 8, 80 or 160.

I think all skills cost too much to train but I am certain it is just a symptom of the state of the game. I also think that buying knowledge should be a lump sum affair so that you know exactly how much it is going to cost before you buy and you can only buy if you can afford it.

I hope I haven't wandered too far afield with this post but I think this thread is like sea-grass, the roots are firmly fixed but the end is flowing with the waves.

[ThomPhoenix]

2007-07-21 by Michael Gist:
Spells which fail to cast now drain 10% of the normal amount of mana. Mana drain now
occurs at the end of a spell cast instead of at the beginning, so interrupted spell
casts drain no mana.

Wish granted

[Lanarel]

2007-07-21 by Michael Gist:
Spells which fail to cast now drain 10% of the normal amount of mana. Mana drain now
occurs at the end of a spell cast instead of at the beginning, so interrupted spell
casts drain no mana.

Wish granted

Xordan did that while I was talking to him on IRC
He also had the solution to my complaints, and I kind of agree with him. Instead of magic becoming more powerfull and cheaper and easier to train, combat should become more difficult

[bilbous]

I can't really see that unless perhaps the levels possible to achieve are close to the maximum they will ever be able to achieve. If training stays as it is and levels are slated to be available in ranks of four digits, no-one will ever get there. What I think needs to be done instead of just incrementing the number of practice points you need to complete the training the difficulty of the practice needs to be better taken into account. Sure this is somewhat affected by the number of attacks needed to kill something but is a gladiator that takes 3-4 hits to kill really only worth 3 or 4 times the practice of a 1-hit kill like a rat? And if I use magic weapons so the glad is 1 or 2 hits to kill?

After a while killing a rat should not count towards practice, anything that can be done without effort should give no practice. This is already taken into account to some extent with crafting as some activities lose their benefit as your levels increase.

As an aside, spell research should give you practice in that magic way, I do not think it currently does. It could be similar to digging in that marginal practice comes from a failed attempt and success grants greater reward.

[Mhyrage]

Xordan did that while I was talking to him on IRC
He also had the solution to my complaints, and I kind of agree with him. Instead of magic becoming more powerfull and cheaper and easier to train, combat should become more difficult

I do hope you mean stats and not combat. Though combat IE weapons skills are somewhat easy in the BEGINNING. Make things like strength easier to train in the beginning as well, Ex: 65-100 area, or 65-80, then make it normalish(like now), then around 125 make it harder, then 150 somewhat hard, then 175 nearly impossible. Add that on to Bilbous's
ideas. I do think magic should become a bit more powerful. At the least Red/Blue way. Honestly right now I only view Dark and Crystal as powerful or even useful. Also magic IS just a bit expensive to train, I mean, if you're using it as an alt for combat it's nice. If all you're going to do is be a mage and train Crystal Way so you can cast Energy Arrow at 90% it's going to take you forever.

[Lanarel]

Xordan did that while I was talking to him on IRC
He also had the solution to my complaints, and I kind of agree with him. Instead of magic becoming more powerfull and cheaper and easier to train, combat should become more difficult

I do hope you mean stats and not combat.

I did mean combat. I started at strength 45 or so, being able to carry about 4 gold ore. That is difficult enough to start It is too easy to max though, I agree.

The thing is, at the moment I can get about 12k an hour looting swords from gladiators, 100 pp a minute killing, 12k in ten minutes mining gold (recently) (but hardly pp), and I could kill a whole rat for 20 experience point and an eye using a few magic spells (did not try lately with weaker spells). This is with comparable level in swords, armor and several magic ways. So magic is definitely less powerful and harder to train than combat.
The thing is, it should not be possible for everyone to be more than average in several forms of combat and magic. To be an exceptional wizard or knight, it should take really really long, so you have to chose on what you spent your limited time (tria and pp). Making magic easier, only makes it easier to excel in everything. Hence my wish, to make combat more difficult to train and less powerful

[Mhyrage]

This game has a very lower playerbase. It doesn't make much sense to make it take forever to train. Logically yes, it does, it's realistic. I love realistic. When you can only find 200 people playing the game(if that) at a given time, at least half of them maxed, it doesn't make much sense to make it harder for the ones trying to get there. I think magic and wepaons and such take almost long enough as it is. As I said, strength and everything should be easier in the beginning, and near impossible around 17, weapons and such should be a bit harder in the beginning.

[zanzibar]

There are also logical arguments for removing training from the game entirely.  Logic is tricky like that - where you end up all depends on what assumptions you start off with.

[Valorius Rageway]

So magic is definitely less powerful and harder to train than combat.

Having fought in six PS wars, it is my firm observation that magic, and specifically high level magic users, dominate the battlefield. If you get a pair or more of top wizards working in conjunction, they can hold off a whole army if the terrain is favorable. I've seen it done, and done it myself.

[zanzibar]

Having fought in six PS wars, it is my firm observation that magic, and specifically high level magic users, dominate the battlefield. If you get a pair or more of top wizards working in conjunction, they can hold off a whole army if the terrain is favorable. I've seen it done, and done it myself.

Said differently:  "Magic is great for laming people if you know how to abuse the map."

[Under the moon]

Yes, the only fair and right way to fight a war is to line up in ranks and march at each other. It helps to dress up in bright colors as well, so your foe can not complain later that he did not see you. Be sure to have people sounding drums, just to make sure everyone knows you are coming, so they can get properly prepared.

I completely agree. Who doesn't think the movie '300' would have been so much better if they would have made their last stand in an open field instead of a narrows? Five minute movies are much more fun to watch.

War= Outwit, outlast, outlive. There are no other 'rules'. I have seen far too many games where magic is just some lame thing added in to have shiny things happen, but you are just as well off, or even better using a sword. There are ways to achieve balance without making magic just a trinket. You just have to think outside the standard RPG (PnP and MMO) box.

[zanzibar]

War= Outwit, outlast, outlive.

It depends on the war.  This is irrelevant though.  Is it realistic to shoot someone with an arrow from behind a wall?  No.