Should guild affiliation endure beyond death

[bilbous]

As it stands now there is no reason for guild membership to be terminated upon ones death but should it remain that way in the future? Ultimately death is supposed to mean something and it seems to me that this could logically be one of the penalties. I am not suggesting that you could not rejoin your guild once you have clawed your way out of the DR but why should the affiliation extend beyond the grave? Is there room within the guild structure for internal warfare? Could there be an option for an internal war where challenge need not be given? Could you remove the leader by killing him?

I mostly do not join guilds and so am free to think the unthinkable. Is there anything here?

[Nurahk]

Considering there will probably always be bugs where you die suddenly.  And how annoying it would be if that happened to all but four of your members...

I'd say no.  Maybe have it as an option.

[John80sk]

I kindof like the idea, but mainly because it gives a way for guild wars to be 'won' instead of a sort of constant bickering until one side gets bored, and opens up the possibility of overthrowing your leader.  Perhaps if it worked only when killed by another player?  Or have it as a temporary lock out instead of a full expulsion.

[Garile]

hmmm I like the idea, but I don't feel one should be booted from the guild, but just have the guildwindow read you as dead so you can't participate in wars and such and perhaps also not show the banner anymore.

The reason I say this is that I would hate to see a new guild go under the minimum requirement becuase two people fall in a bug and die.

Personally I would like the idea that you can't leave the Death Realm right away aswell, but I suppose an idea like that will have to wait untill there is more to do in the Death Realm

[ThomPhoenix]

In the future more "evil" characters and guilds can "live" in the Death Realm. It would be quite sad for those evil persons if they were kicked from their guild once they would return to their home base.

[Zan]

An issue to consider is that by having players automatically leave their guild you could possible disband the entire guild by massacring a guild's membercount down to under five.

People are suggesting more and more options to influence guilds without needing to be the leader lately ... sure this might be more realistic but I think the people that made the suggestions don't always know how much time and effort goes into creating and maintaining a good guild. I'm not in the least worried about the guild creation fee but there are sacrifices and efforts put into guilds that go way beyond this fee.

I know that I wouldn't like it if my guild, for which I worked hard to get a background story up, recruited the right types of people and integrated it into the world of Yliakum, suddenly got disbanded or taken over by others. This would, without doubt ruin my gaming experience and possibly make me consider backing out of the game. This is still a game , keep in mind that it should be fun for everyone. Losing something you've put your sweat, tears and blood into is not fun for anyone.

These more realistic options, which make it possible to destroy or take over guilds are, in my opinion, going to be a source of frustration, grieving and intense conflict rather than a source of a more vivid gaming experience. I do know they're meant well, I'm just not convinced they'll be used well.

[Garile]

*reads Zans post and nods*

I have to agree with Zan. Eventhough we have a great community around here you'll always have people who enjoy exploiting the gamemechanics to gain some advantage. Some even sometimes seem to enjoy doing things intentionally to ruin someone elses joy in the game becuase they are frustrated with something themselves. If one would implement something like this or ways to "take over" the guild one has to keep a very close eye on how such mechanics might be exploited.

ThomPhoenix also raises a good point with the setting although I personally hate the idea of a guild having a base in the DeathRealm. I mean what value does death have here? Suicide as a normal traveling way to reach your guildhouse? Sounds ludicrice to me. These plans in my eyes would lessen the meaning of death even more then it is already and be honest the people who pop up in the same RP 5 minutes after killing them are normally concidered VERY bad RPers.

The main question here is "What is Death" in PS. The devs seem to be at a loss themselves. Saying at the same time it should be played as something terrible, but at the same time planning to make it just another map and infact making death a traveling tool more then anything else. Realistic? Not in my eyes. Or it's a traveling tool or it's horrific, but it shouldn't be both. That simply doesn't work as current RPs have already shown.

[Draklar]

The main question here is "What is Death" in PS. The devs seem to be at a loss themselves. Saying at the same time it should be played as something terrible, but at the same time planning to make it just another map and infact making death a traveling tool more then anything else. Realistic? Not in my eyes. Or it's a traveling tool or it's horrific, but it shouldn't be both. That simply doesn't work as current RPs have already shown.

I advise getting a hold of two books. One dealing with the Truths About Death Realm. The second Lies About Death Realm. Pay some attention to such concepts as The Diaboli Game (if I remember the name correctly), True Death and (divine-related) Atmosphere in Death Realm.
The first should explain why people wouldn't fear it all that much. The others should explain why many people would avoid it. It's all worked out.

[bilbous]

I think there is perhaps another problem here which I have touched on long ago which is that there are player made guilds and then there are the guilds which elect the Octarch according to the settings. Are the two going to be combined, are the electoral guilds going to be npc only or will those guilds be developed into something players can take over and run entirely in-game?

[Sangwa]

It could all be lovely if optional.

[The Soulless One]

In the future more "evil" characters and guilds can "live" in the Death Realm.

I'm all packed, just let me know when I can

I would have to agree with Sangwa, Optional being the key word.

[Feline Prince]

Who would use it though? I think people have far to much control ingame. There is no element of unpredictability which defeats the point of playing against other humans surely? If anything making guilds harder to run would encourage me to start one because being successful would be something more of a feat. At the moment the only challenge is the very OOC thing of activity. To keep things running smoothly you need to keep people interested so they stick around. Making things more uncertain would do that by itself. Now the death by bugs thing is an issue, but the bugs shouldn't be worked around, they should be fixed.

P.S. About the evil guilds:

Guilds could choose to have members not be lost once they are in the death realm but these guilds could have a different disadvantage such as only being able to recruit people in the death realm or something.

[Sangwa]

These things Bilbous speaks could only be implemented as options. For instance, it makes no sense to have a Crafters guild where you become a leader if you kill the current boss. But in a Tribal warriors guild it could thrilling... Though easily played out without any additional systems. Obviously the people who would choose it would be the same that could bypass it without having it implemented.

You don't control anyone else besides yourself. It's obvious you don't own a guild yet, or you wouldn't think leading a guild isn't challenging. It's easy to have a crappy guild, yes you just need 20000 trias and 4 alts, but a successful one is a very different thing.

EDIT TO ADD:

I think there is perhaps another problem here which I have touched on long ago which is that there are player made guilds and then there are the guilds which elect the Octarch according to the settings. Are the two going to be combined, are the electoral guilds going to be npc only or will those guilds be developed into something players can take over and run entirely in-game?

It's unlikely, seeing as what the developers have mentioned up until now, that players will have any relevant role in Yliakum's government and high level politics. But maybe in a far, far away future that might be possible. Or there might be NPC controlled guilds which players can be a part of.

[bilbous]

Well of course a lot of my suggestions are of the pie in the sky, ideal conditions sort.

I see no problem with a crafters guild which is run by a hereditary leader who can only be removed by death. In such a guild it might require more than just one death, it might require the death of a family and would likely still require considerable political support to get yourself into the position once it is made empty.

As far as losing your membership due to a 'fatal' bug goes, the guild could work up rules to minimize disruption, members in good standing could be automatically readmitted those who are more suspect could be made to requalify or be subject to some test. It would likely mean that you should act as a traditional hierarchy during warfare in that the cannon fodder is sent out to die first and the leadership stays out of harms way at all costs. I don't have a real problem with it being optional but I do wonder which guild leader would dare take the option if they didn't have to. Perhaps it could be a guild creation option as opposed to a standard guild option so that once the guild is created it is no longer optional. Otherwise I can see a new leader coming in and changing it so he cannot lose power the way he gained it.

[Garile]

hmm well sounds a bit to much like a guild who has someone with invite doing nothing but sit around reinviting people would have somewhat of an advantage.

I rather not have them booted but simply remain members but go into an inactive sort of membership. Wouldn't that be a lot less bugstressfull then with death booting you out of the guild?

Looks more profesional atleast in my eyes.