Author Topic: read this for secret meetings  (Read 4143 times)

Draklar

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Re: read this for secret meetings
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2007, 09:07:27 pm »
Raleigh... Why on earth are you arguing with me over stuff I'm not talking about?
Post in Wishlist, I don't know. My references go to the opening post.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2007, 09:12:21 pm by Draklar »
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Garile

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Re: read this for secret meetings
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2007, 02:07:17 am »
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So I am both nitpicking and not reading carefully at the same time? I admit, I am a man full of paradoxes.

If you can explain to me how the opening post (as well as "eXplore, eXpand, eXploit, eXterminate") implies mere influence (and not control at all), feel free to do so.

Two things:
1) If you're not talking about controlling, you're way off topic in this thread.
2) Even if players won't be allowed to control the world, this doesn't rule out possibility of influence. Which makes your criticizm unjustified.

P.S. The "control" from the post you quoted refers to devs, not players. But oh, I am nitpicking again.
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100% of control over it by its own creators.

The first post implies that if you would meet at the tavern the fate of the world would be decided. In the replies many say this is ludicruos for two reasons. One being the "secret" meaning. Two being the fact players don't have that kind of influence becuase the DEVS are controlling everything. The referance of Raleigh is pointed at the fact that the devs are keeping all the control themselves.

So are you misreading? Uhm yeah. Are you nitpicking? In my opinion you aren't becuase you are simply wrong, but if you weren't it would be nitpicking becuase the poster who used the word obviously ment something else then you are trying to make him say. Reading isn't just looking at the literal meaning of a word but also put it in context and look what the person who wrote it ment.
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Draklar

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Re: read this for secret meetings
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2007, 08:47:42 am »
No one takes influence away from players.
Control (as assumed by Raleigh -- 4X) most likely won't be possible.

Whine all you want, but you just criticized devs for the first, because of the second. Look at the post you quoted. Consider that maybe... Oh, just maybe! You are the one in the wrong.

Some sort of influence through adventurous actions - possibly.
Control over cities and strategy-styled land-controlling - most likely no.

And if you think devs are paranoic, because they don't want to turn PS into a strategy game... well, that's your problem.
This is the context Raleigh spoke in and it isn't Planeshift.

Later the discussion changed both content and vocabulary wise to support previous statement (which logically isn't associated with what followed). And that my dear lady is to be considered a logical fallacy. Either Ignoratio elenchi or red herring.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2007, 09:10:12 am by Draklar »
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Raleigh

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Re: read this for secret meetings
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2007, 09:51:42 am »
No one takes influence away from players.
Control (as assumed by Raleigh -- 4X) most likely won't be possible.

Whine all you want, but you just criticized devs for the first, because of the second. Look at the post you quoted. Consider that maybe... Oh, just maybe! You are the one in the wrong.

Some sort of influence through adventurous actions - possibly.
Control over cities and strategy-styled land-controlling - most likely no.

And if you think devs are paranoic, because they don't want to turn PS into a strategy game... well, that's your problem.
This is the context Raleigh spoke in and it isn't Planeshift.

Later the discussion changed both content and vocabulary wise to support previous statement (which logically isn't associated with what followed). And that my dear lady is to be considered a logical fallacy. Either Ignoratio elenchi or red herring.

      A logical fallacy used to accuse others to commit logical fallacies, how ironic. Now you put words in my mouth to claim I want PS to become a strategy game.

      Unlike what you want to imply, that link was referring to what I dreamed as the "greatest game idea if it was possible", not of what I want PlaneShift to become. In fact, if you pay attention to the rest of the thread, I support player control, yes, but on a local level for things like business, small villages, private properties and so on, not nation-wide government. If you think this kind of players control is bad, then guilds are next to useless In-character for anything but associations of friends and "helping newbies". I know adventures are an interesting element of any RPG, but it is not the only one. Having opportunities to people open business or settle villages won't make of PlaneShift a strategy game, and who said it must be strategy-style control? Think big, PlaneShift isn't as conflicting and brutal as other scenarios where adventures are much wider like for example the D&D Toril's Moonsea or Thay, and through businesses and limited land control other forms of challenges besides combat and "dungeon crawling" become possible.

      Lastly, I don't think a MMORPG will ever be able to compete in the fun-factor and history(not the background Settings, but what happens to the characters, the plot line) with a great Single-player Computer RPG or oldschool PnP, due to the obvious fact that with smaller numbers of PCs, they can do much more interesting things while being realistic than with larger ones, where many times PCs are delegated to tasks usually filled by NPCs in other types of RPG( 1 player may be one who will become a great hero in the end of the plot, 4 could make a great adventuring party, but what about 200 or 1000?), unless it presents possibilities for the players to shape the world with their characters and to a certain extent, control some things through additions to the already existing things(New villages in uncivilized lands, new businesses, etc.) instead of modifications to the already existing(NPC and Settings present organizations, etc.). And what you desire is not only something that I fully disagree with, because adventuring in the same level of PnP or SP RPGs is impossible, but also something that certain guilds wouldn't like at all. Or would you find it realistic to have hundreds of different adventurers, instead of some adventurers and some people inside guilds with some small control over some things?

      And I wasn't criticizing the devs with the first post, I was just pointing something to show that some people not only want to go too far, but also to achieve things without any effort at all, that's why I mentioned the "4X" first, because of course, a single character deciding the future of Yliakum is ridiculous(Only in 4X you already "RP" a great leader). In fact, now I think I should've used another link instead: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_of_the_United_States. Of course if this was the intention of this "secret meeting", as an IC kind of joke based on a nutcase type of character, like this one, then it would be different, but still seems to be some kind of OOC joke... as I mentioned before but was swollen...

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P.S.: Wait? "Polotics" and "porody"? I think I know who might be behind this joke...  :whistling:
« Last Edit: June 23, 2007, 09:53:27 am by Raleigh »

Draklar

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Re: read this for secret meetings
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2007, 10:22:01 am »
Hmm, no, this argument is stupid.

Dude, you said devs want to have 100% control by making players powerless chit-chatters (maybe the first; second - false accusation).
The accusation was sarcastic and most certainly uncalled for. Same with following accusation (not from you) about devs being paranoid.
No one ever said minor control won't be possible (we already have guilds, so I think that should get rid of comments like that). Perhaps not the major.

You may say truth, or you may lie. The thing is with the sarcasm in your initial post, I don't really buy what you say. So here's the thing:

If you have some ideas about the former - post in Wishlist.
If you have something against the latter - either keep it to yourself or post something constructive to change it.

Sarcastic comments like the aforementioned "powerless chit-chatters" or comments about paranoia aren't constructive. Savvy?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2007, 10:56:04 am by Draklar »
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Suvok

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Re: read this for secret meetings
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2007, 11:07:20 am »
Is Suvok the only one who wonders how this post has degenerated to this?
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Illyria

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Re: read this for secret meetings
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2007, 04:53:24 pm »
Is Suvok the only one who wonders how this post has degenerated to this?
nope