Fighting on Plaza ALWAYS OOC???

[Karyuu]

GMs don't assume there are rules. GMs have them via settings material - the same material that is available to everyone else in the game libraries.

Now I'd like to know who was recently banned for fighting in the plaza.

[drah]

Nobody, because really, we're good girls and boys... and when we get told off (even without being frozen and killed from falling!!!)... we try to accomodate.

We changed our MOTD's to warn players NOT to fight there and if anyone broke that rule we started screaming at them in guildchat, fearful of being killed by a GM, banned by a GM, etc.

And Karyuu... I'm not blaming GMs at all... They don't have the answers to EVERY question given to them... and they just try to do the best they can based on who's complaining about what... and that IS fair enough, I can't fault them for that.

As I said, they're in the more awkward position... ALWAYS caught in the cross-fire between players when things get out of hand.

The problem isn't the GMs, it's just that nobody KNOWS what is and isn't true in the game besides that which is apparent.  Because we're supposed to imagine ("roleplay"?) a lot of it different people have different expectations of what the game holds and that we can also not see or have any indication of.

No matter how this thread turns out, I can assure you that my guildmates and myself are planning on ensuring future wars use the Plaza as a "safe-zone".  We don't like the idea, we think it sucks... but we're trying to accomodate for those who are offended by a guild-war running through the Plaza.

[Raleigh]

Nicana is correct, there did seem to be a different rulebook used for a GM event compared to the one used for everyone else.

(I never saw any GMs getting frozen, suspended in the air and killed, so yes... a rule for them and a rule for us... and in our case, we had many in numbers, they had what... one??!... ya gotta smile at that.)

Also, the claims of harrassment to avoid repurcussions for your IC and RP'd actions has been an annoyance lately.  You have auto-decline, you have /ignore, yet some people choose to NOT use those functions and instead, almost conspiratorally try to use the GMs as tools to get people banned, which effectively becomes OOC harassment as a revenge for the IC harassment.  Using the GMs in such a manner has happened at least twice now.

That's not to say it's the fault of the GMs, it's just some people know how to manipulate them.

Draklar: Valorius is posting because Valorius is aware of the reasons behind my original post and is effectively adding some background and context to it.  I avoided giving that info away because I knew what to expect in regards to the responses, by pulling it out of it's context... I stood a better chance of getting opinions that I could use at a later date to justify my actions rather than knee-jerk reactions... and to some degree it was successful.

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I couldn't agree more, the GMs should be empowered to repel people fighting on the plaza... it'd be fun for them and fun for the players and add to the RP all-round.  Even if they made themselves damn near invincible, I'd still rather be driven out of town by the guards than frozen in the air by a GM and subsequently killed when released... that was even more ridiculous than any fighting on the plaza I've ever seen.

I SHOULD be killed by a guard... not fall from the damn sky.  Pfffft!!!

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As for knowing the guards movements, if you knew the conversation I have with people in-character, you'd know that I (and Valorius) would make it our job to recognize the forces in Hydlaa (if we had some sort of indication from somewhere, would be helpful) and with that, assess what would need to be done to neutralize a threat from the guards there.

We don't have that liberty, we simply see what our characters can see and so, base everything off that... we don't "god-mod" imaginary guards into the game... we just use what our characters can see... because playing the characters role, immersing yourself... is what is encouraged.  I'll immerse myself in PS.. but I'm not going to go on a fantastical journey imagining everything else because that heads towards god-modding and is unsubstanciated by any ACTUAL FACT that we as both players AND characters are made aware of.

      PlaneShift is pre-alpha(According to what I readed, alpha means a software with all main planned features already developed, but yet to have its bugs fixed), and there is very little information on how should the outcome of such event happen, and anyway, those towers descriptions say there are "rumors" about guards using them and as pointed out, it requires some real imagination to claim that everytime something happens there are guards there by a coincidence. From a testing perspective, there is nothing wrong on having a PvP game in the middle of the Plaza, as roleplay can only surpass technical limitations until a certain point, now if we treat PlaneShift as something unfinished we should play as if it was finished regarding the roleplay, then the wilderness still remains as an excellent place for warfare. On the other question, I think gods should be NPCs, not PCs, because roleplaying a god without getting the worse of one's egocentrism isn't something easy, too much power in one side means easeness of abuse on it(unless the one with it is really responsable), and impotency on the other, and as I said before, it can justify anything a GM does as being IC, and I think GMs should worry less about having overpowered characters to interact in game(there are some who do that, I won't give names). Having the undefeatable uber dude won't make things fun at all for anybody, being a GM doesn't mean that one's character should never "lose"  in game, but it seems a sad fact that the undefeatable GM PCs for events is a common choice now(or perhaps players are too afraid to go against them) and it only makes things highly linear and predictable. If it is to deal with OOC problems, an OOC solution would be better than a poorly-written IC action. The question of people going too much for GMs also has many things to do with the "not wanting to lose" syndrome(forgetting that it is your character and not you who loses) that doesn't exist in a Pen and Paper RPG, where if your character dies in the hands of a villain, he is usually dead forever, and a good GM won't punish the player behind the "evil" character who did that.

[Nicana]

GMs don't assume there are rules. GMs have them via settings material - the same material that is available to everyone else in the game libraries.

I think that it's more the "law" that's being questioned rather than "settings rules" (i.e. the law in Hydlaa says there's to be no fighting in the Plaza.  We know it's physically/settings possible)

... and Draklar ... we're talking about "fighting in the plaza" ... why, when it comes to RP you can see a thousand guards but not the opportunity to shiv someone??  is it only your RP that counts?

[Karyuu]

Why are you questioning a law, Nicana? It makes perfect sense that fighting be made illegal in a central plaza of a city that is called a capitol of the first level. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you - can you further clarify your position?

[drah]

I don't think Nicana is questioning the law, just observing that it is being questioned. (and ICly ignored by some)

[Feline Prince]

I feel compelled to defend my views.

"Valorius. If you walk into the middle of London"
Try London when it was the size of Hydlaa!!! - It was a lot different to modern London, so that comparison is already invalid.

I meant comparatively in the fact that it is the biggest city and has the best law enforcement. London didn't have anywhere near the liberal stand point and organised higher achy as the Hyldaa, which obviously does have a good guard force because its built like a military barracks.

"There could be a million guards for all you know."
There could be just the ones we see and the watch tower could be empty.  There's no indication one way or another, so to make claims of "It's OOC 'cuz the guards would get you"... is actually YOUR INTERPRETATION... and it's not based on the physical evidence we have in-game... so it's also
supposition because there aren't any facts that ACTUALLY support it.

My point is more that your character doesn't know how many there are and you should RP it as such.

Now if its the heat of battle and your characters wouldn't give a second thought to the guard force then I think it's fair enough. It would be a stupid planned attack though. But if what you did made sense RP wise, considering what your, I assume, Intelligent characters, would have done with the guard situation in mind then its the games fault and not yours. The GMs could have taken a better course of action.

[Draklar]

Nicana: Care to explain how does shiving someone go along with this?

If there were, say, 50 combattants... would the guards realistically be able to do much?

Because as far as I remember that was what we were answering and that's what we were confronted on.

[Karyuu]

Drah: Understandable, it's good to play evil characters sometimes. I think the point of people debating with you, however, is that to play an evil character means understanding that there are consequences for murdering someone in a public place, and in plain sight. So long as you do your shady business in a location that seems like it would not have any patrols, you should be alright. And if you don't, and give someone the sharp end of your weapon where others are around, it makes no sense at all to stick around and pretend as though nothing has happened, or that no one saw anything because there are no NPC guards within a foot of your character.


But the argument of "It's not in the game yet therefore it doesn't exist" is IMO ludicrous. Might as well ignore that there are other levels in Yliakum, rivnaks, Octarchs, etc. You have to use your imagination and common sense every now and then.

[LigH]

I think that it's more the "law" that's being questioned rather than "settings rules" (i.e. the law in Hydlaa says there's to be no fighting in the Plaza.  We know it's physically/settings possible)

Remember, it is IC law. "Common law" in Yliakum is roleplayed. Those who break this law are to be scolded in a roleplaying manner ... if they don't understand the common law, they obviously don't understand this game. And those who scold them out-of-character, don't either.

I am sure you remember how we roleplayed to ban the Outlaws out of the cities where they constantly broke the law. At least those who understood that it was a roleplay.

[ereale]

is the law , No Fighting in Hydlaa, the result of attitudes expressed over time by hydlaa citizens throughout hydlaas history? or just an idea that a handfull of decision makers think is suitable, so suitable these same decision makers employ others, called GMs to enforce the idea on the imagination of PS players, as well as manipulate their in-game actions.

Is there a story relating to PS history that explains why violence in the plaza is frowned on any more than in any other area of yliakum?

Is there a point in time where the people who make up the community of hydlaa actually have a say in its common laws, or are they always going to be handed to them?

If violence in the plaza was such an issue and bearing in mind that it probably happens daily, why isn't there mechanics in-game that prevents it at all?
i know developers always say they are busy busy busy, but usually if ps has a problem or bug that is an issue, it gets attention before other ideas do.
Why after so many releases, can violence ocur there?
The only answer i could think of was to add to the feeling of reality, but this didn't make sense to me, when i remembered how many times the sense of reality in-game had been destroyed for me, through the attempted enforcement of PS rules, that like all rules are open to interpretation.
But now i'm wondering, .......are PS rules open to interpretation???
And do these rules evolve with the community that grows alongside the developing game, or against it?

probably all stupid questions, but thats how my head works.........Ok, target is ready(me) .....time to attack!!

[Feline Prince]

Something called morals is behind the idea of not killing each other. We CAN be attack each other, but we have to accept that the punishment for such is not implemented so you have to RP it. Okay?

[Draklar]

I think ereale is right.

We need ingame mechanics fitting the setting, before actually expecting players to follow it.
There's one simple solution. Let's remove PvP feature altogether \o/
I think that would be a nice (lack of) feature that could simulate fear of breaking law and characters having (*gasp*) sense of morality.

I may sound sarcastic, but I'm not. After participating in this thread I really have to pull back my opinion that there's nothing wrong with a bit of PvP. Role-players will do with /me anyway.

[drah]

"I meant comparatively..."
Comparitively, Hydlaa is tiny in comparison still... if we're being realistic.

"My point is more that your character doesn't know how many there are and you should RP it as such."
My point is that I play as my character, I see what my character sees, I immerse myself in my character and it's environment (and as a player I do make an effort to try to find solid information that I can use within roleplay)... I don't go assuming or "godmodding" things that aren't evident.. into existence.  I thought generally, making stuff up without any solid indications would potentially cause conflict with the world of Planeshift... and I don't think I'm unreasonable in taking that stance.

"Now if its the heat of battle and your characters wouldn't give a second thought to the guard force then I think it's fair enough."
THANK YOU.. we were in the middle of a war involving 4 guilds.  It wasn't a planned attack though... it was just a case of the war passing-through the plaza.  We even tried to move things towards the Arena but noticed the opposition sneaking up behind... as soon as they fired their first arrow, we retaliated... and then seconds later... we all found ourselves frozen.

Karyuu, regarding "there are consequences for murdering someone in a public place, and in plain sight." - and I'm NOT arguing with you here, just seeking clarification...

With this being at a time of war, what are the rules regarding such an event and how the laws pertain to warring guilds, retaliation, defense, etc.? -- I'm not disputing you, I just want to know whether a guild-war would be a mitigating circumstance and whether those reasons (retaliation / defense) would be a consideration or not?

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Draklar... even many who enjoy RP would leave if the option of PvP was completely removed... Guild-War functions were implemented for a reason, because people like the option to engage in conflict... like it or not, it's true.

People fight every day, but it seems you live in some utopia were any form of conflict is unrealistic or should somehow be impossible by magical forces that prevent it... is that realistic? is that the way to push Planeshift?

"simulate fear of breaking law" ... no, it would BE, not even simulate... the end of Planeshift as a fun or exciting game. --- Hacking at mobs is not exciting, and every other form of "excitement" (from some peoples perspective) besides battle is typically the sort of thing that could be carried out in an IRC chat room.  I guess in Planeshift... nobody can "live for war" or be blood-thirsty from your perspective.

We're not talking about people going around challenging new players and bullying people... we're talking about four consenting guilds engaging in war... but if you had your way, you'd spoil that fun.

A slightly less unusual request... would be to make the game mechanics stop fighting in the plaza altogether and a slightly more preferred AND realistic option would be to either have NPC guards that could attack people who fight there.. OR... let the GMs have some FUN... become guards and repel any forces that fight on the plaza. -- If they're late in coming... they're "Shadow Squadron" guards from the Bronze Doors (and that's why it took them time to respond).

[Karyuu]

Thanks for clarifying Drah, it's a lot easier to understand your point now. Unfortunately you're not going to find the answer to this from anyone that's not on the settings team - so why not try to send Xillix and Jeraphon a PM with your question? If you're looking for an official response, a forum thread like this isn't going to achieve the best results. More often than not, developers avoid stepping into something that looks like a bee hive with players passionately arguing amongst each other. So if you have a question on something, I would recommend you get in contact with a dev directly.