Fighting on Plaza ALWAYS OOC???

[Draklar]

According to the decree, murder is mostly considered a high crime because many people are lost in the Death Realm. Also, there are ways to cause permanent death. It's only good thing not available to players >.>

Fights are possible, yes. But as has already been said (by Nikodemus, I think), when role-playing, people should take into account the activity of guards. Run out of town, hide somewhere, assume being caught. Instead it's a common activity observed in game, that a dueler either remains in the spot where he killed someone and just chats with other people, or goes to the most visible place possible and stays there.

I've seen much more reasonable duels within Hydlaa's walls. Recently I've seen one in a back alley, or spot which isn't very likely to be patrolled by guards. But there are also duels appearing to be downright stupid... Like those that happen right next to a captain of (north?) city guards.

[LigH]

As long as ruthless players (yes, OOC) don't need to fear any consequences due to the game mechanics (they can decline, they can walk through other chars), why should they stop slaying others whereever they like?

[wither]

I think to ASSUME there are over 50 guards present in or near the plaza, when there are in fact only a few physical ones scattered around the plaza, is a big as in any IC RPing that i would take part in.  Im all for IC RP, but to just make things up out of thin air, is not IC as far as I see it.  Most of the comments made about the numerous guards, were also implying that the bad deed done, was a single handed murder, not a WAR.

Now, OOC, i don't know of a single war in history, that when it entered a city, everyone stopped fighting when they got to the centre of town because people were smithing nearby.  A WAR will go were it wills, and clear a path in its wake.  So it would have been extremely OOC for me to chase my enemy (the other army) all the way to the plaza, to just stop and not slay them, or defend myself, whichever the case at the time may have been.  

IC, my character has not ONCE, seen a guard patrolling the plaza itself, nor seen a sign prohibiting fighting, so why would he not fight there in a time of war?  Why would he think to himself that 50 guards will surround me if i slay this person here, when he has never seen ONE guard in that plaza itself, nor ever been warned by a guard, or a resident of Hydlaa, that it is not acceptable.  It would also be OOC for him to take a message from the guilds MOTD that says dont fight there.  So if we want things IC, lets truly be IC.  

I agree with those that have said that a GM should take over a guards NPC to stop the fighting, the best idea that has come from this thread IMO.  But, back to the numbers.  If we are truly expected to pretend that 1 guard is to simulate 50, then how many were in fact in our army of 10 or so characters, by my calculations, that would have made our army 500 strong, an impossible task for any guard 50 strong.  If we go higher to lets say 1000 guards, lets make the same assumption, that makes our army 10000 strong, that would wipe out the entire city.  

I also agree with the OOC DR spawn killing, i didnt like the idea from the start, but given game mechanics, how else are we to imprison our enemy and make them yield?  I suggested in another thread, that we perhaps should have a spell, that makes the mage able to hold a person, even if only for 10secs (gotta make the mage work for it), this would then allow us to take prisoners of war, and keep the fight out of the DR, and furthermore the city.  Also if character spawn points were not within the city walls, this would then also make it more possible to keep the war outside the city.  But the way things are set up, you spawn in the city, so to keep it out of the DR, the fighting would be in the city.  It would be ridiculous to expect an enemy to respond to "/me takes so and so hostage" it just wouldnt happen, and i would be extremely disappointed if it did.  

So lets face the facts, WAR within the city will happen, and to keep it out of one area, would be extremely OOC.  Why is it that if fighting in the plaza is against the law, fighting anywhere else within the city walls isnt?  If 1 person was to commit a murder, then yes, if the murder was pre-meditated, that would be crazy, especially if you stayed there and not ran.  But if in the case of my character, if I were to kill 1 person, it would be because of provocation, and I wouldnt say, come to arena so I can kill you, again, OOC.  

But I ask this.... If so many are against fighting a WAR in the plaza, why did no one step up to stop it?  The war was fun, you should try it sometime, and it was a 1 day event, if you dont like it, step up to stop it IC, or run for your life, but if I am to stay IC, in future WARS, I will not stop at the plaza, I will chase down my enemy and kill him, wherever he stands, that is what a WAR is.

Killian Therin (Lost Souls)

[Raleigh]

According to the decree, murder is mostly considered a high crime because many people are lost in the Death Realm. Also, there are ways to cause permanent death. It's only good thing not available to players >.>

     Wrong, it is a bad thing war doesn't bring permanent death, though it's a world design decision so it's not going to change. If death was absolute, people would think twice before going into PvP with others and levelling as it would be a great deterrent to constant wars(If there would be any PvP in this case, it would be mostly the average people brawl instead of duelling of warriors then) . Of course it would have some disadvantages, but I remain as a supporter permanent death in RPGs. In many of the pen and paper RPGs there is permanent death, and also I know some few great roleplayers in PlaneShift that decided to assume their characters will never escape the DR and made their deaths permanent, though they are the exception to the rule. I know it's a question of newbie-friendliness, and I know that with the yet existing bugs that provoke death it won't be possible to think about it a all now, but perhaps then, there could be a permanent death where even death(and Cthullu ) can die, perhaps if your character dies in the DR, it is definitive then, and perhaps there could be a chance to become lost there forever(as the law considering murder as a high crime mentions). Just remember, the more death becomes endangering and final to a character, more seriously people will treat it on roleplay and less futile combat will exist. I hope this post won't be fully dismissed in a shower of flames.

As long as ruthless players (yes, OOC) don't need to fear any consequences due to the game mechanics (they can decline, they can walk through other chars), why should they stop slaying others whereever they like?

Because my friend is a GM. 

[Draklar]

As long as ruthless players (yes, OOC) don't need to fear any consequences due to the game mechanics (they can decline, they can walk through other chars), why should they stop slaying others whereever they like?

Oh, they can do it all they want. No one will punish them for such behaviour. Unless it's downright annoying to everyone around, they're free to do as they wish. We don't have any RP-enforcement.
However, if that is the case they shouldn't be coming around spreading excuses for their ooc behaviour, should they?

@wither: who exactly needs more than 50 guards when the people engaged in "WAR" are wiping one another to start with? They can easily take on what survivors are left.
And your character has seen lots of guards patroling the area. It's you, as player, who hasn't.

[wither]

@wither: who exactly needs more than 50 guards when the people engaged in "WAR" are wiping one another to start with? They can easily take on what survivors are left.
And your character has seen lots of guards patroling the area. It's you, as player, who hasn't.

Sorry to say, but not in all wars are all warriors wiped out, there are alot of wars where 1 side is completely overcome.  And I'm happy to meet your character ingame with my character, so that he can have all the 100s of supposed guards pointed out to him.

[Draklar]

If you are sorry to say something, don't say it.

wither... Get a hold of the history of role-playing. Then argue about it. Start with theatre.

[wither]

I havent seen any theatre around Hydlaa mate, so for now, Ill just stay IC, since no one knows my character better than I, except himself.

There is no changing my point of view on this, so I will stick to what I said in my original post, and stay TRULY IC, rather than plucking ideas out of thin air, and if there are consequences, I will take them, as long as they are IC also.

[Zan]

I haven't read the entire thread so I'm probably just repeating what someone else said.

Dueling in cities is prohibited by Yliakum Law, this means anyone who does it, is a criminal. If there are witnesses they'll be hunted down by guard. If there were no witnesses and due to bodies disappearing towards the Death Realm ... well they'll get away with it most likely. At least until the victim eventually returns from the realm of the dead.

In this thread I see two extremes coming forward mostly ...

The extreme of there being no enforcement of the law and thereby ignoring realism and common sense.

Or

The extreme of the guards breathing down your neck with every misstep you make.

Reality teaches us that extremes usually fall apart in different shades of grey. So in a good, realistic RP one should keep the Guards into account but you don't have to assume that the guards are allpowerful, they're just characters like ours.

Of course when one goes against the entire government and uses a city as a field of battle ... well you're not only painting a big neon arrow over your guild's head saying 'criminals" but you're also likely to have to deal with the government's army on top of the detachment of city guards. Sure you could maybe hold the city siege for a short bit but eventually your guild would be completely destroyed. No guild in-game is capable of fighting the government and winning at this moment.

In the case of the Outlaws, they can still fight the government and live up to their name but they'll have to live a life of running and hiding from any official armed force and risk being spotted by good citizens.

[Draklar]

The extreme of the guards breathing down your neck with every misstep you make.

Huh?

Fights are possible, yes. But as has already been said (by Nikodemus, I think), when role-playing, people should take into account the activity of guards. Run out of town, hide somewhere, assume being caught. Instead it's a common activity observed in game, that a dueler either remains in the spot where he killed someone and just chats with other people, or goes to the most visible place possible and stays there.

I've seen much more reasonable duels within Hydlaa's walls. Recently I've seen one in a back alley, or spot which isn't very likely to be patrolled by guards. But there are also duels appearing to be downright stupid... Like those that happen right next to a captain of (north?) city guards.

I thought that's the stance we're taking?

[Zan]

Like I said, haven't read the entire thread, only the first couple pages and in there I mainly saw extreme stances being taken Anyways good to see that we're on the same level, ignore my post then.

[wither]

I thought that's the stance we're taking?

If this is your stance, it is not relevant to this discussion, since this discussion is not using a single person killing another as an example.  Perhaps you need to go back over the entire thread, as this whole discussion, is talking about a time of WAR, between 4 guilds, 2 vs 2, an army, against another army.  If you expect an entire army to run away from a few guards, I dont see how that is IC.

[LigH]

Recently I saw a newcomer I met just 10 minutes ago, who got killed by another player, and after I told her that he was new and surely only challenged in accident, she was so ambarrassed about it...

Is it too easy to challenge by accident, due to the default settings after the installation?

[Draklar]

Like I said, haven't read the entire thread, only the first couple pages and in there I mainly saw extreme stances being taken :P Anyways good to see that we're on the same level, ignore my post then.

Okay, I guess I can see that :P
Was mostly refering to the case when 50 people start fighting between one another.

Anyway, I would find the idea of city being overthrown by a powerful guild quite interesting. I just don't think it could be started by a guildwar in its center :P
Much more likely it would need to be started by shady characters taking out archers on the walls. Then the muscle dudes focusing on some strategic points (taking Jafecra as hostage?) Some thinking like that anyway. Still such guild would need to take into account the participation of other adventurers. Someone trying to free the captain and so on. Could make things quite interesting, if role-played out well :)

[wither]

Now I'm probably going to start to seem like im singling you out Draklar, but believe me, thats not my intention.  Quite the opposite, I like some of your ideas in this last post...  "Still such guild would need to take into account the participation of other adventurers." 

This would be great, but it seems in the past, most guild wars are frowned upon by the so called "RPers" of Yliakum, which means, that any interaction from other "adventurers" is nil.  Even if you write an entire novel IC, which would have to be posted on these forums, otherwise it would bore everyone before it even started, people still avoid guild wars like the plague, they seem to right away assume that its not IC enough.  What they dont understand is, that the flare up of the war, has already been acted out IC, just cos said people were not present, they think its OOC. 

As I said earlier, in my first post, it would have been great if another guild stepped in to our war, to cease fighting in the city centre, this would have been fantastically IC, but instead, people OOC'ly complain to GMs, and we end up with an OOC war, because the war has not travelled its natural path.