Fighting on Plaza ALWAYS OOC???

[Natrina]

 Well. I had given up on this thread after a few pages back as I found that much of the discussion here didn't deserve a reply, but now that Zan came up and already mentioned some of the points, I'll reply. Take in mind I only read about 5 of the 6 pages this thread is made of currently.

 For those who seem to be pro-fighting in Hydlaa and use a "there's only x guards!" argument, you seem to lack two things already mentioned by Draklar and Zan: and those are 1) imagination, which is required in a roleplaying game where the system is flawed and unfinished and 2) common sense.

 If you can't see past the "fact" that there's only about 10 guards in all Hydlaa, you're just not roleplaying PlaneShift. You're roleplaying some other thing inside it, but not PlaneShift. The only thing you're doing to PlaneShift at that moment is you're playing it, not roleplaying it. That which you do could be defined as the reverse of godmodding, in which you simply refuse to accept anything that, even if supported by abstract concepts implemented in-game, isn't implemented in a way you can touch and feel.

 You know what? From a concrete point of view PlaneShift is a mess. A simple question, why are doors to other Dsars closed in Ojaveda? Just because that's how the game state is? No. These things have roleplayed reasons and that's what it's all about. If you can explain the closing of the Dsars, then you are roleplaying. Because truth is there's no "plague" (or whatever IC reason in given for it), we're just roleplaying to fill in the holes of the current state of the game, if the way we fit that is with npc-given information, or even off-game received information, or just with the use of common sense, just depends on the situation.

 In this situation, just a little bit of common sense would help. Think, you're doing a war inside the capital of all Yliakum. All Yliakum. There's no wonder we extreme this position: it's a whole lot of area. And from a strategical point of view, who the hell would fight in a place where they'd fight both their enemy and the guard? Yeah, you'd think about how many guards there'd be and even if they were a little amount, why the hell would you do it there? Because you feel like it and you don't care if just five more of your warriors die to the guards, what you really want is to fight your enemy there and then? Geesh.

 Finally, I really laughed with the "Omg, a GM killed me in a terrible terrible way for me fighting there". Guess what the GM was telling you? No fighting in the Plaaza. And hey, he did it in a roleplay-like fashion, didn't he? It was Laanx that said it, that's an in-game thing. So, wither, for example, a realistic "IC", by your definition, reason for you not to fight on the Hydlaa Plaaza is because it is a sacred place for Laanx and he'll send you to the DR if you do.

 Honestly, it's just barbaric to have people fight on the Plaaza. Even duels there are. If that's how your character is, good for you. Do it as you wish, even though it's quite normal you'll find people point the finger at you, you're roleplaying a part of the game that is flawed and so they'll pull to their side and you'll pull to yours. But I think it'd make more sense if you just would leave the plaaza. It isn't that hard to have battles somewhere else and you won't upset everyone who're just enjoying the plaaza by making it look they live in a chaotic society with no rules and no capacity of rule enforcement what-so-ever.

[Duraza]

I agree. Fighting in the plaza, or in any part of the city, is wrong for rp. Sensibly the guards would find you and you have to remember that not only are there a lot of guards but they have more advanced armor and weapons. You have to assume that even if your strong one of the guards would be able to match your strength. However I don't think just because you start to fight suddenly 20 guards will be surrounding you. So lets say you start a fight with someone else. You'd have to assume that within 10 to 15 minutes the guard would be about. Maybe one or 2 would appear at first. That should be enough to stop the fight and if no one is dead or majorly hurt then I doubt that you will just be put in jail ( I believe thats just for murder). Maybe though you have 3 more friends that come. That would give you maybe a little more time to fight before there are more guards. Also the fact that your fighting the guards back will mean that you'll most likely be arrested. However these couple more minutes could be used as time to escape instead of fight.

In the end you have to know that the guards are strong but they are also capable of dieing just like you (as in they are mortal). Make sensible actions. If you suddenly start a really big fight then know you'll most likely only have 5 minutes before the guard members surround you and the exits to Hydlaa. Try and make sensible decisions. Fighting in the Plaza isn't OOC but you can't go on four hours trying to kill someone. At max it should be 15 minutes of fighting between 2 people and even then they will most likely get caught. So if you want to fight someone either do it outside of Hydlaa or make it a hit and run because there won't be time to do much more if you plan to escape.

[Nicana]

I think that it's more the "law" that's being questioned rather than "settings rules" (i.e. the law in Hydlaa says there's to be no fighting in the Plaza.  We know it's physically/settings possible)

Remember, it is IC law. "Common law" in Yliakum is roleplayed. Those who break this law are to be scolded in a roleplaying manner ... if they don't understand the common law, they obviously don't understand this game. And those who scold them out-of-character, don't either.

I agree fully. 

[Beliy]

Just to add some "food for thought":

It's not only conceivable, but quiet realistic to imagine two lawless factions having a series deadly skirmishes in a larger war within the boundaries of large, well ordered cities. Often this involved  paying local law enforcement and politicians to turn a blind eye.

Two examples that come to mind would be the Bowery Boys and  Dead Rabbits, among other groups fighting very publicly in New York city in the 1850's, and the Northside and Southside gangs of Chicago (Bugs Moran and Al Capone) battling publicly during the prohibition days of the US. The two had very different outcomes. The first example eventually did end with law enforcement engaging everyone and killing pretty much all of the battling parties. The second ended in the St. Valentine's Day Massacre, which Capone won and ruled Chicago crime.

Ultimately, Capone was, as many know, prosecuted, not for killing, but for another crime --income tax evasion. Interestingly, the ultimate result of gang wars involving control of liquor sales was to change the laws and end prohibition in the United States.

So, while military strategists looking to wage war sanctioned by governments might find urban warfare untenable, petty thugs and other lowlife seem quite adept at having bloody battles in very large, well policed cities, while, at least for the short term, living with impunity.

[Zan]

Anyway, I would find the idea of city being overthrown by a powerful guild quite interesting. I just don't think it could be started by a guildwar in its center
Much more likely it would need to be started by shady characters taking out archers on the walls. Then the muscle dudes focusing on some strategic points (taking Jafecra as hostage?) Some thinking like that anyway. Still such guild would need to take into account the participation of other adventurers. Someone trying to free the captain and so on. Could make things quite interesting, if role-played out well

It is an interesting idea and I'd even say it is something several of the current guilds would like to do. But first of all because of game mechanic limitations it's impossible to influence the government and secondly not even the biggest, baddest guild that PS has to offer now can challenge the government on it's own. The only real way to overthrow a government is by starting a revolution and getting the people on your side, just take the french revolution and following american revolution as an example.

Like I said, people can break the law, they can fight the government and the guards but they can't win. The best they'll be able to do is survive ... which a good criminal will manage.

This is where the appeal of RPing criminals lies for me ... you're always the underdog with most odds against you and you can never really win but every day you survive is a victory on it's own. Just staying out of the clutches of the guards and the people while scoring some occasional loot is the best a criminal can and should hope for.

[Valorius Rageway]

It But first of all because of game mechanic limitations it's impossible to influence the government and secondly not even the biggest, baddest guild that PS has to offer now can challenge the government on it's own. The only real way to overthrow a government is by starting a revolution and getting the people on your side, just take the french revolution and following american revolution as an example.

Because of game mechanics no guild has to take on the gov't. There is no gov't to take on unless some GMs show up to RP one (which is always fun). What's more- there are no archers on the wall, there aren't even bows (i personally will consider they day they're implemented to be the day they're 'invented'). There are ranged spells....but alas, there arent any guards on the walls to cast them. The only time ive ever been attacked from the Hydlaa wall was by a Onyx Dagger GM (yes- a BAD GUY), with arrows....whom i killed.  Valorius has slain many GMs in many guises.

As far as guards(or GMs in general) having superior arms and armor, so does the US army. And where exactly has that gotten them in Iraq?

The US Army's technological and materiel superiority over the Iraqi/Al-Q insurgents- right now, IRL- is INFINITELY more prohibitive than what a criminal/guild/insurgency would face in PS. And yet, there is a vibrant, active, and deadly insurgency- even in Baghdad. It is simple FACTS like these that make some arguments on this thread look extremely naive and foolish. As for examples of places where combatants fight in the presence of a heavy guard presence: Night clubs, prisons, BAGHDAD. Want more examples?

PS: The American Revolution was first.

[Farren Kutter]

Valorius, i thought you were going away? It was much better when you were gone >.> I think this topic needs to be locked The questions has long since been answered.

[Duraza]

and secondly not even the biggest, baddest guild that PS has to offer now can challenge the government on it's own.

I disagree there   . Besides it doesn't take numbers to win a fight, they just help.

I think that it's more the "law" that's being questioned rather than "settings rules" (i.e. the law in Hydlaa says there's to be no fighting in the Plaza.  We know it's physically/settings possible)

Remember, it is IC law. "Common law" in Yliakum is roleplayed. Those who break this law are to be scolded in a roleplaying manner ... if they don't understand the common law, they obviously don't understand this game. And those who scold them out-of-character, don't either.

I agree fully. 

Yeah, thats totally true. Fighting in the Plaza should not be responded to OOCly. An IC response is needed. Possibly if people started yelling "I'm going to call the guard!" it would give people the warning/reminder they need and then most likely run away.

Like I said, people can break the law, they can fight the government and the guards but they can't win. The best they'll be able to do is survive ... which a good criminal will manage.

But that makes the game so unrealistic. Fighting Laanx and Talad and not being able to win makes sense. However the goverment is as able to die as we players are. I always thought it would be intresting if the GM's made something like that happen. Kinda like when those rogues took over Oja. A uprising started from NPC's and GM's and helped out by we the players.

As far as guards(or GMs in general) having superior arms and armor, so does the US army. And where exactly has that gotten them in Iraq?

The US Army's technological and materiel superiority over the Iraqi/Al-Q insurgents- right now, IRL- is INFINITELY more prohibitive than what a criminal/guild/insurgency would face in PS. And yet, there is a vibrant, active, and deadly insurgency- even in Baghdad. It is simple FACTS like these that make some arguments on this thread look extremely naive and foolish. As for examples of places where combatants fight in the presence of a heavy guard presence: Night clubs, prisons, BAGHDAD. Want more examples?

Oh and you make a good point there. Even with better weapons and armor someone smart would be able to fight back regardless. Fact is until the guards can actually appear and fight you back whatever happens is really in the hands of the player.

[Valorius Rageway]

Some food for thought:

From Hydlaa plaza it's approx:

15 seconds to the sewers,
30 seconds to the arena
20 seconds to the dungeons
45 seconds to either city gate

 So anyone attempting to flee would have convenient and readily accessible escape routes in every direction from the plaza. Those would have to be some VERY fast acting guards if they wanted to catch anyone fighting at harns. And on top of it, there are no street lights.

Furthermore, if we are to pretend there are guards with (unimplemented) crossbows everywhere, including on the walls, then it is also neccesary to pretend there is a huge crowd of citizens and merchants packed into the square (and on the paths) at all the stands and shops that WOULD be in operation there. This would heavily obstruct sightlines and ready movement of reserve forces.

So either way, the guards task is untenable, to say the least. Street crime is very, very hard to stop. Even today with all our modern technology, in most 1st world cities in the world violent street crime is a very real problem.

 I do not dispute that it's 'illegal' to kill at harns, i just think that the vast majority of the time, it would be unenforceable.

[Zan]

I'll have to disagree with you Duraza, a well established government ... in fact the only well established government, the one and only government that controls everything which happens within the eight levels of Yliakum ... is not very easy to overthrow at all. People can die, sure, the guards can die and even the vigisimi and octarchs can die but the government is bigger than just a handful of people. Without doubt it has a hand in nearly everything going on in Yliakum, commands the largest military force, has plenty of informants, spies, a treasury bigger than we can all imagine and extremely influential people within it's ranks.

Something like that can't be overthrown easily, the best you could hope to do is work your way into the government and trying to pull as much power towards you as possible. Sadly that would go against the settings and can't be done with the current game mechanics. I wouldn't mind RPing it but I'm very sure that you'll get the opposition of loads of players as soon as you claim to have become a powerful vigesimi People become jealous quickly so I stay away from things like that.

Valorius .. I'm only going to say one thing, you're the only person I've ever met that calls themselves a good roleplayer and considers everything not implemented yet non-existent. I'd think about that if I were you.

[Bepules]

Some food for thought:

From Hydlaa plaza it's approx:

15 seconds to the sewers,
30 seconds to the arena
20 seconds to the dungeons
45 seconds to either city gate
 

Well, the time in Yliakum is not the time on your clock, Valorius. But a good roleplayer knows this.

[Valorius Rageway]

Some food for thought:

From Hydlaa plaza it's approx:

15 seconds to the sewers,
30 seconds to the arena
20 seconds to the dungeons
45 seconds to either city gate
 

Well, the time in Yliakum is not the time on your clock, Valorius. But a good roleplayer knows this.

I ask, why was this post even neccesary? It was an irrelevant addition that, in reality, was just a lame excuse for a thinly vieled insult.

I quantified my post in REAL TIME MEASUREMENTS cause even "non RPers, PKers, PVPers, and Powerlevelers" would recognize it. Unlike you, i am all-inclusive.

Valorius .. I'm only going to say one thing, you're the only person I've ever met that calls themselves a good roleplayer and considers everything not implemented yet non-existent. I'd think about that if I were you.

I simply dont pick and choose what to include, like all you "RPing Pros" do. MANY PSer simply include what aspects of 'how it would really be" they can cherry-pick that supports your their position, and then conveniently overlook the rest. Like crowds, and congestion and sight obstruction, etc, as i mentioned in my last post.

I simply RP what's implemented. It's IMO the most honest way to do it. I go by what's in game when acting on a scenario. IOW, i do not pretend i can turn ethereal (like one player does), or can blast black fire out my hands (like anohter player does), nor do i pretend i am the equal of a player FAR STRONGER than i am (while, of course, declining his challenges), just to avoid training because "only RP fighting is real fighting", or because "PvP is OOC. Sorry, no, the Devs included PvP to resolve disputes between players.

You know what IS TERRIBLY OOC? Declining a challenge when someone attacks you. "Oh? You're attacking me at a full charge with your swords? Well, pffft, i'll simply decline and ignore you or bicker some more."

Anyone who has ever declined such a challenge has NO ROOM to talk about anyone else's RP deficiencies.

As for me, i RP what's implemented. So sue me.

[Zan]

I won't sue you but I will chose not to RP that way

If I'm challenged when I'm in the vicinity of a guard or friend who could possibly come to my assistance, I'll refuse that challenge. I don't find the duel/combat system realistic enough in such situations for my RP preferences ... and I find that everyone has the choice to decide this. If someone makes it impossible for me to get out of fighting them in an IC manner I'll simply /ignore that player after saying "No thanks."

I hope you realize that your extreme standpoints are no better than the 'elite' roleplaying standpoints that are being taken by some people. People should remember that we're all here to have fun respect eachother's wishes more .. I know I've also been guilty of not doing it but I do my best to remember it.

[Valorius Rageway]

I won't sue you but I will chose not to RP that way

If I'm challenged when I'm in the vicinity of a guard or friend who could possibly come to my assistance, I'll refuse that challenge. I don't find the duel/combat system realistic enough in such situations for my RP preferences ... and I find that everyone has the choice to decide this. If someone makes it impossible for me to get out of fighting them in an IC manner I'll simply /ignore that player after saying "No thanks."

And THAT is good RP? Totally ignoring it cause the PvP system doesnt suit you? That is a 100% OOC reason not to duel.

To RP someone attacking you (not challenging- attacking- there is a differerence) there are two choices- RUN, or fight. "No thanks" as a response to an attack will only get you a belly full of steel in reality. If one has made a conscious decision not to fight, one should be very polite IC indeed to keep any kind of realism to the fact that its in an era when people would kill one another for virtually any reason at all (oh, wait, most of the world is still like that, hehe).

Hmmm.

I hope you realize that your extreme standpoints are no better than the 'elite' roleplaying standpoints that are being taken by some people. People should remember that we're all here to have fun respect eachother's wishes more .. I know I've also been guilty of not doing it but I do my best to remember it.

I humbly suggest that anyone who doesnt want to duel with a known pvper not actively provoke them in main chat and(or) tells. Yet, i see it all the time. "RPers" provoking "PvPers", and then simply declining, and often taunting in tells or main chat OOC.

[Duraza]

I'll have to disagree with you Duraza, a well established government ... in fact the only well established government, the one and only government that controls everything which happens within the eight levels of Yliakum ... is not very easy to overthrow at all. People can die, sure, the guards can die and even the vigisimi and octarchs can die but the government is bigger than just a handful of people. Without doubt it has a hand in nearly everything going on in Yliakum, commands the largest military force, has plenty of informants, spies, a treasury bigger than we can all imagine and extremely influential people within it's ranks.

Something like that can't be overthrown easily, the best you could hope to do is work your way into the government and trying to pull as much power towards you as possible. Sadly that would go against the settings and can't be done with the current game mechanics. I wouldn't mind RPing it but I'm very sure that you'll get the opposition of loads of players as soon as you claim to have become a powerful vigesimi People become jealous quickly so I stay away from things like that.

Never said it would be easy nor that I would attempt it. Only that it was possible. Its definately not probable  

Some food for thought:

From Hydlaa plaza it's approx:

15 seconds to the sewers,
30 seconds to the arena
20 seconds to the dungeons
45 seconds to either city gate
 

Well, the time in Yliakum is not the time on your clock, Valorius. But a good roleplayer knows this.

I ask, why was this post even neccesary? It was an irrelevant addition that, in reality, was just a lame excuse for a thinly vieled insult.

I quantified my post in REAL TIME MEASUREMENTS cause even "non RPers, PKers, PVPers, and Powerlevelers" would recognize it. Unlike you, i am all-inclusive.

I think the point of that was to tell you that 15 seconds in RL could be 10 minutes in Ylikuam. What you call a short time in RL really would be a very long time giving guards plenty to catch up.

I simply dont pick and choose what to include, like all you "RPing Pros" do. MANY PSer simply include what aspects of 'how it would really be" they can cherry-pick that supports your their position, and then conveniently overlook the rest. Like crowds, and congestion and sight obstruction, etc, as i mentioned in my last post.

I simply RP what's implemented. It's IMO the most honest way to do it. I go by what's in game when acting on a scenario. IOW, i do not pretend i can turn ethereal (like one player does), or can blast black fire out my hands (like anohter player does), nor do i pretend i am the equal of a player FAR STRONGER than i am (while, of course, declining his challenges), just to avoid training because "only RP fighting is real fighting", or because "PvP is OOC. Sorry, no, the Devs included PvP to resolve disputes between players.

You know what IS TERRIBLY OOC? Declining a challenge when someone attacks you. "Oh? You're attacking me at a full charge with your swords? Well, pffft, i'll simply decline and ignore you or bicker some more."

Anyone who has ever declined such a challenge has NO ROOM to talk about anyone else's RP deficiencies.

As for me, i RP what's implemented. So sue me.

I can't say that your way of Rping is any better than mine. After all who are we the players to say what is in the game and what isn't? What's implemented is the safest way to go about rping. However I still feel when you RP you should look at the game as a whole and not an unfinished product because the fact that it is unfinished is OOC. You should not let that affect how you rp because OOC does not belong in the IC rping world, it leads to bad rp. The best way to make sure that something you rp is in the game or possible is to ask a gm. They have the best idea of what the finished game will be like and will be able to respond to you the best.

As for the bit about PvP I can't speak for everyone but I don't PvP because I find it an unrealistic way to fight. I believe that it was mentioned that the PvP system will be changed to make it more realistic and when that happens I'll start to PvP and train. The other reason is because as I said I like to look at the game as complete when I rp. When it is our characters will have limitations, something not displayed currently. Right now anyone can get a lot of money and just train till all their stats are maxed so they can rp their character as really strong and beat anyone PvP. However when the game is complete depending on how you make your character during creation you won't be able to reach higher levels in certain stats. I rp by those limitations. For example my character Duraza is rped to be a strong dark mage however he isn't very agile. He has very low skill at using any weapon and because of his low strength he rather stick to magic. Now if I were to try and train Duraza according to those limits I put on myself for rp then I'd still lose PvP. The reason why is most people just spend their time maxing every stat ignoring the fact that their character too should have limits.

This ties in to my reson for declining challenges. It's not OOC for one thing because the character challenging is usually "uber" strong having just trained all their stats to max as if they were the perfect warrior. Secondly doesn't it make sense that the character who declined decided to run away? After all when I accept I could just /yield anyways without my opponent getting to me at all. If I wanted to when someone engages me in a duel I could accept then just run really far away. However that would be pretty useless when I can just decline and run in the first place.

As I said its not bad to Rp whats implemented but its not the best way in my opinion. And as for that black fire thing I do something simular to it. I don't know who you meet who did it but for me I pretty much rp the effects simularly to those of regular fire. The fact that its black is just to make it unique