Author Topic: Fighting on Plaza ALWAYS OOC???  (Read 25193 times)

Kostis

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Re: Fighting on Plaza ALWAYS OOC???
« Reply #120 on: July 16, 2007, 11:22:28 am »
Knowing a little about both guilds, i believe this war could have been avoided. But of course this is my personal opinion. I believe it was IC though

Arerano

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Re: Fighting on Plaza ALWAYS OOC???
« Reply #121 on: July 24, 2007, 01:15:39 pm »
Well, well.
I've read almost everything of this scattered thread. (took quite some time)
Here my points:

What's the OOC problem with fighting at the plaza: Less experienced players may think that it's common to fight everywhere without taking into consideration that anything may happen.
Ignoring the fact that there are guards, independant of the count, is OOC. Taking it as IC that they (those who can be seen) won't do anything is even worse. And even if you can escape (it doesn't matter how many seconds/minutes/hours you need to get from the plaza to the gate/sewers/whatever) (allthough there are guards at the gates, near the sewers entrances) they would at least banish you from the city after you slayd someone there. (Won't let you get back in).

Of course, fighting happens IC at the plaza also. It's normal that people get in rage when offending each other and soon a fight happens, no matter what the law is. But ignoring that guards would come to sort it out (as long as it isn't too late), or would track you after killing someone, at least inside the city walls, is ludicrous.

I even once heard one saying: "Fine, call the guards. When they tell me to stop, I will."
Yes, people could be arrogant enougth to say that IC. But such an sentence come, in my oppinion, from the fact that the PLAYER knows that guards won't come nor do anything..

About "GM's could have fun also playing guards": Yes, maybe.. sometimes. But that's not what they are there for. It's not their task to RP the guards and I also don't think that it always would be fun to do so. (Will be quite annoying soon for them).
And then, there will be people arguing how "one single guard" can't be able to stop X persons fighting.
Sure, it wouldn't be easy for the guards to stop a war which happens among 4 guilds, but they would at least be able to surge them out of the city.

Too bad one can't walk "awound" Hydlaa, yet. I mean from the east gate to the north gate. (For example to go to BD when coming from Ojaveda). This makes it hard to RP being punished from Hydlaa without actually walking throught it.

Possible Improovements: (Suggestions)
Make the area from the east gate to the north gate passable. (Oh, well. There's a "kind of" river, but I guess that people should be able to "swim" or "walk" through it [this would require map-changes])
Make it possible to ban people from hydlaa. (Of course, this must happen IC, the enforcement could be game-mechanics wise [for example by GM's who impersonate guards])
Make it possible for GM's who're able to impersonate a guard to have "helper guards" (maybe somewhat similar like pets who should be able to "follow"/"assist"/"attack", btw "follow a target" [track someone down within Hydlaa])

Of course, guards who's track someone down and would get into a fight with the one, most likely won't "kill" the one but knock him/her down. A follow-up after a fight could be "teleport back to the place where the one 'died'", then banish from hydlaa ICly [+game mechanigs wise when implemented]

--
Just some comments and suggestions. Some may not yet be that well thought out.

Greetings Arerano.

drah

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Re: Fighting on Plaza ALWAYS OOC???
« Reply #122 on: July 25, 2007, 11:02:24 am »
"Ignoring the fact that there are guards, independant of the count, is OOC."

a) Imagining an **infinite** number of guards that can't be seen... is IC?? 
b) Thinking there's a limit to which the guards would be able to operate effectively... is OOC??

"Taking it as IC that they (those who can be seen) won't do anything is even worse."

a) Imagining that the 4 or 5 guards who would have been able to see this would have ran in to take on 30+ people is IC??
b) Imagining that the handful of guards would want to wait for reinforcements or wait until the warring guilds had injured each other enough to be easily apprehended... is OOC??

---

As for ignoring the guards, well, for me, I'd have explained to the guards exactly what happened.  After all, I was getting shot in the back with arrows as I was making my way to the arena ... had I not retaliated.. I'd have probably been killed.

And I'm sure it will be, in some people's opinions... OOC for me to expect the guards not to recognize me despite wearing different clothes and that I had a battle helm obscuring my face on the day in question... furthermore, I'm sure some people will try to claim that this is "OOC" that I don't imagine that they can see my face from the other size of plaza and also "OOC" if I don't imagine them having photographic memory. ;)
« Last Edit: July 25, 2007, 11:13:31 am by drah »

Zan

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Re: Fighting on Plaza ALWAYS OOC???
« Reply #123 on: July 25, 2007, 05:34:25 pm »
Drah, being spotted by guards and labeled as an offender of the law can have direct consequences ... though in your case it probably wouldn't have been. However it will have long term consequences because such a huge crime cannot be overlooked and will be spread throughout the city and beyond in a matter of days. The world of Yliakum doesn't end when people decide their RP event is finished. That's what I see with a lot of people who haven't really gotten the hang of roleplaying yet. Those people RP events and just wander about leveling or casually chatting with others in between those events. Very few characters actually RP 100% of the time and take long term consequences of their actions into account ... this is especially true for the criminal type of characters.

Every time I see a 'bad guy' wandering casually past a guard, training in the Arena or chatting on the plaza, I prefer to ignore them and pretend they're not there. Murderers, killers and criminals don't get to simply wander about in a well guarded capital like Hydlaa. If they do it in rogue-infested Ojaveda I can live with it.
Zan Drithor, Member of the Vaalnor Council
Tyrnal Relhorn, Captain of the Vaalguard
Thromdir Shoake, Merchant
Giorn Kleaver, Miner.

Grayne Dholm, Follower of Dakkru

Dajoji

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Re: Fighting on Plaza ALWAYS OOC???
« Reply #124 on: July 25, 2007, 06:17:27 pm »
[warning]Long post. Sorry[/warning]

Hydlaa has guards. Enough guards to safe keep the city. Assuming there are both only those you currently see in-game or an infinite number of them is godmodding. No point in arguing which case scenario has the highest probability of taking place.

Is it IC to have a fight? Sure is, as long as your character has a reason to. Does it mean you can fight anywhere? Depends on how smart your character is.

  • They could be dumb enough to fight in front of a guard.
  • They could be dumb enough to fight in the death realm, knowing their attempts are rather futile beyond the short term (when they could be trying to find the way out, that is if living is somewhat a priority for them).
  • They could be dumb enough to forget they are wanted criminals and think they can pull out the respected citizen card whenever it's convenient.

I call all these actions "dumb" just because the character is completely oblivious of the consequences their own actions have brought as in:

  • Logically, a guard would react if a crime is committed in front of him. Whatever they would do is not the issue here, but it is the most unlikely that they would sit idly.
  • Logically, part of the reaction would be letting other guards know of the crime committed and the perpetrator. That makes the character in question a wanted criminal.
  • Logically, wanted criminals should lay low, cover their faces, don't go out in public, etc. That is, of course, if they wish not to be caught/killed on sight.

Do all players do this? No, but some do. And those who answer "the guards don't do anything in-game. I can't be arrested" are simply being not logical and their characters are the dumbest ever.

Can we do something about this? No. Roleplay quality is self-controlling. Only those involved in a roleplay can improve its content. Only when there is a blatant failure to fit the RP in the settings is when some official opinion will be given. As it has been in the case of dragons, vampires, werewolves, etc., etc. Will this stop players from having a RP against settings? Hell no. Otherwise we wouldn't have these discussions over and over. It would only prevent them from freely exposing their RP in any official space: guild names, character names, forum posts, irc, etc. They will be frowned upon in those spaces but in-game, they can RP whatever they want. Simple fact.

But here's another fact: when you completely ignore the community and the settings you are a bad roleplayer.

Bad roleplayer! Bad!

Drah:
I agree with most of your points and I believe there was IC motivation for a guild fight. I also believe there were a few bad roleplayers involved in it because of the reasons exposed above. That, unfortunately, undermines any roleplay.

Now, does the fact that something can have a place IC mean that is ok to go ahead and do it? This is relative. As this long thread has proven, some actions, whether IC or not, have OOC consequences as well, being the most serious one spoiling the game experience for others. If that happens, the fact that it is IC becomes secondary. GMs will intervene when that happens by listening to all parties and taking proper action. Sometimes, players will be annoyed at anything but some others they will have valid points. There isn't a fixed rule that draws acceptable or unacceptable. Each case will be looked at, discussed and dealt with accordingly. Sometimes it will be as simple as "if you don't like it, walk away" and some others it will be a more drastic intervention. It is relative.

My advice next time you plan a RP that is in a gray area is: check with settings team, check with GMs, state all the rules of engagement necessary and then have fun. Some players find it amusing when they get away with a loophole in the rules that allows them to pwn other players. They have fun by themselves and at the expense of others and that is something I personally find reproachable. Player events share the same objective as GM events: to promote roleplay and make the game experience better. Checking with the teams makes that a lot easier to achieve.

Enjoy the game.


wither

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Re: Fighting on Plaza ALWAYS OOC???
« Reply #125 on: July 25, 2007, 10:03:58 pm »
This thread in the end, really sounds like 2 kids bickering... "I killed you, youre dead"...."No Im not, I killed you...."

Argh

Most of the posts referring to fighting in the plaza, are still forgetting that we are talking about a war.  A WAR!!!.  A soldier in an army is not a murdering, thieving criminal, he is a soldier, fighting for his army, his cause.  Name me one soldier from history that was arrested by "the guards of the city", for murdering a soldier on the opposing army.  Its childish to think otherwise. 

Perhaps some more people need to watch the history channel, more documentaries, read more books, to realise exactly what was realistic in medieval times. 

bilbous

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Re: Fighting on Plaza ALWAYS OOC???
« Reply #126 on: July 26, 2007, 12:10:05 am »
That is just silly. They got Al Capone for tax evasion. You are not talking about legitimate armies you are talking about gang violence. Wasn't there a crip leader recently executed in the States despite a jail-house conversion? That is what you are talking about, not England vs France or the U.S vs the world.

wither

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Re: Fighting on Plaza ALWAYS OOC???
« Reply #127 on: July 26, 2007, 06:09:49 am »
I know exactly what Im talking about.  Remember also we are talking about medieval times, not 1920 or 1940.  We are NOT talking about gangs, we are talking about 2 hostile forces fighting one another in medieval warfare, mercenary armies, or Militia.  Sure, i agree, not a country, but when a city is under seige, the "guards" are civilian, and the army would have to move in to defend the city, so if any civilian took up arms, they would be considered guerilla's, and the army may not be successful.  So lets think about a few armies in the Middle Ages that were not backed by a leader of a country, shall we?  And we will see who is the silly one, as you put it.

It would be more on topic to speak of the likes of The Huns, this is more the timezone we are all RPing.  The Huns moved out of central Asia and took whatever they liked in front of them.  They didnt get into a city plaza and stop fighting because the civilians might complain, lmao. 

Or perhaps the Goths, around the time of 370AD.  Starting as refugees from the Huns, they migrated across the Denube, and into the Roman Empire, where they were treated like crap, so they revolted, taking down not only the emperor, but 2/3 of his army.  This was done within the Balkan Provinces, again, no stopping the warriors because a civilian may complain. 

The Goths were people without a country, they invaded the West Roman Empire, and had an overwhelming victory, which some say marked the beginning of the end of the Roman Empire.  So that takes care of the comment that we arent talking about England vs France, you dont need to be a leader of a country to invade a city.  Many leaders, kings, emperors have been taken down, along with their armies, by alot less than the likes of another country's army.

I wonder if all armies in history, no, lets just stay within medieval warfare, if they would have stopped at the city walls, well, we would still have Troy around today, there would never have been the fall of the Roman Empire, and England may well still be run by the Romans.

If we want to talk history, lets talk history, since this is when this game is set, and the time we are RP'ing, so again I say, it would not be IC for me to stop and not fight in the plaza, if that is where my enemy has headed, I would pursue him, capture him, and slay him, and I would have my army at my back to resist any other forces that appeared.  And if we were to go down, we would go down fighting.

We could talk about this until we are all blue in the face, but the fact will remain, that no one is here to listen to other's comments, they are only here to put their point across, and of course, your point is always the best, and the only one that matters.  So until the contributants of this thread, every one of them, are willing to consider all the idea's put forth, there is no reason to continue this conversation.  I would just suggest that people should learn a little bit of history, before trying to sound like they know what they are talking about in regards to wars of the middle ages, and therefore what is acceptable RP. 
« Last Edit: July 26, 2007, 06:14:39 am by wither »

Dajoji

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Re: Fighting on Plaza ALWAYS OOC???
« Reply #128 on: July 26, 2007, 06:17:24 am »
Just out of curiosity (since I wasn't there when it happened). How many characters were involved in this war?


wither

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Re: Fighting on Plaza ALWAYS OOC???
« Reply #129 on: July 26, 2007, 06:26:19 am »
Probably 30-40 each army.  Well we had 30-40 at any time, and the other side had 20-25 most times.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2007, 06:33:01 am by wither »

Dajoji

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Re: Fighting on Plaza ALWAYS OOC???
« Reply #130 on: July 26, 2007, 07:13:14 am »
A pretty decent number for a guild. I bet there were more Huns than that though. ;)

Anyway, I'm glad you had fun and again, feel free to contact me if you need help for future events.


Hwnae

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Re: Fighting on Plaza ALWAYS OOC???
« Reply #131 on: July 26, 2007, 11:45:58 am »
Wither good points but I think you're missing one vital idea ...

Your examples were all of one group invading another, this example is one of two groups fighting in territory controlled by a third. Hydlaa is the capital of Yliakum, the seat of the Octarchy. The Octarchy has four Bronze Door fortresses which are fully manned on the first level alone (settings, correct me if I'm wrong here) and I imagine plenty more reserve troops around. The Octarchy has a total army much, much larger than 40 or even 70 men, if you combine both warring guilds. On top of that they control most of the cities and have hardened, veteran troops fighting off the creatures from the Stone Labyrinth.

That is the issue here, two guilds warring on property that is owned by a much more powerful government, without it's consent.

Personally I'd rather see any type of war being played out in the wilds .. we have plenty of room there and it keeps problems like this away.

bilbous

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Re: Fighting on Plaza ALWAYS OOC???
« Reply #132 on: July 26, 2007, 06:01:28 pm »
If you do not like my modern day example think the Montegues and the Capulets from Romeo and Juliet. Two rival factions within their town held in check by the forces of their liege lord who was a Duke or something. Your guild would be akin to a minor house while the Hydlaa guard are the forces of the territorial Lord. You have to know that the territorial forces will scale to the resistance they may encounter as Yliakum has a stable government according to the settings so your rival army analogy is flawed from the get-go. The overthrow of the government or at least the rendering of it ineffective is out of context even if it is in character.

wither

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Re: Fighting on Plaza ALWAYS OOC???
« Reply #133 on: July 26, 2007, 10:07:24 pm »
Well, for starters, Romeo and Juliet is a story, not an historical event.  2ndly, the hydlaa guard is very limited in its resources, a guard is not an army, a guard is not set up for war, it is set up to protect the city from general crime, but not an army moving in. 

I think Hwnae has some good points though, 12 BD's i think there are in fact, and agreed, all well fortified.  But remember, it is a long way from the BD1 area to Hydlaa, and this is the closest BD's. 

As far as minor houses overthrowing territorial lords, history is full of this.  The setting also suggest that PC's could possibly challenge and overthrow the government, unfortunately, it isnt possible in the game mechanics, perhaps some day that will change.

Feline Prince

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Re: Fighting on Plaza ALWAYS OOC???
« Reply #134 on: July 26, 2007, 10:39:16 pm »
Planeshift is more of a story than a historical event. What two factions fighting in the plaza has to do with either overthrowing it I don't know. You'll find with such a stable government they'll have a sufficient army to rid of any invaders. Especially as all citizens have to be trained in combat.
Hide where they expect you to... Its what they least expect.