Eliminate all 'mental' stats from the game.

[bilbous]

So basically you are thinking of replacing the base stats such as we have with the derived stats that depend on them in the PS system (more or less)? How will they be generated?

The PS stat training is a little silly, I think,  the stats should be raised organically by doing the things that depend on them instead of paying money and pp's. They should be increased at a slow rate through use and degrade at a slower rate with disuse. Skill should have enough cross stat requirements so as to ensured stat degradation is uncommon and the result of very strict specialization. In other words, any particular skill or task within a skill ought to have a major stat requirement as well as a minor stat component. For example hammering a blade could have a major requirement of strength (perhaps) which would directly affect the output quality grossly and a minority component of agility which would affect output in a minor way. This would allow for advancement of the strength stat and maintenance of the agility stat. Similarly smelting of ore could have a major of endurance to withstand the heat and fumes and a minor of intelligence to be able to separate as much of the dross from the desired metal as possible. These examples are just that and some other combination of skills might make more sense with further thought. The idea would be to balance out the major and minor stats across the skill spectrum so that characters can advance fairly steadily and have their various stats degrade only in extreme circumstances.

In the end I do not think it matters too much what the stats are called as much as how they are used in the game mechanics.

[Under the moon]

Did I read that right? Charisma affects the casting of spells?

* Under the moon bonks the Dev on the head who thought that up.

That just seems like another case of "How do we make this CHA stat more useful?"

Charisma (CHA)

    Represents the ability to convince an audience of your ideas, to lead your soldiers in battle or to attract followers. It is used in casting spells of the Crystal and Dark Ways. ...

This clearly states my point. Who, exactly, are you going to try to convince of your ideas? Who are you going to be leading into battle? Who are you going to attract as followers? I do not think any of those can be answered easily with NPCs, but come naturally with other players. Therefore, the CHA stat is useless as it is defined, and instead forced into a 'magic' role.

Bilbous, by "how you talk to them", I was referring more along the lines of the Faction system, not the actual speech you would use. Talking to the right NPCs about the right subjects/quests gets you more influence with them and their faction. That is how it is already intended, so my suggestion is nothing new. Also, you continue to stat that playing with other players is separate from playing with NPCs. In this, do you suggest we are actually playing two completely separate games on the same server, with split personality characters who act one way around players, and completely different around NPCs? That, I will not accept, even though it -is- that way it is done now.

As for what 'stat' to use for casting magic, a simple Magic Ability or Spirit stat would be all you needed. Magic is not a 'real' thing, so does not have to rely on 'real' stats.

Magic, as I see it, is the Spirit equivalent to physical stats, and should be nearly parallel in use.

Some basic physical stats are Strength, Agility, and Endurance, which affect how strong your character is, how fast, and for how long they can go. I would mirror the same for magic, such as Magic strength, Magic Speed, and Magic Endurance. Intelligence does not really have to play a part, and Charisma does not belong in there at all.

Now that I have said my piece on charisma, and why it creates a rift between roleplaying with other players or NPCs, I will move on to Intelligence in my next post, and why it does the same, only perhaps in a worse way.

[Induane]

So basically you are thinking of replacing the base stats such as we have with the derived stats that depend on them in the PS system (more or less)? How will they be generated?

Yes quite so.  They will be generated initially as an initial stat level based on character selection.  After that ingame they simply level in a linear fashion from use.  Using the skill causes its skill level to increase, disuse causes it to fall. Our initial incomplete skills and stat page is here:  http://wiki.peragro.org/index.php/Skills_and_Progression.  We want the system fairly simple and free from lots of overt complexities, and since the game is about player freedom we decided to incorporate a realistic leveling system with appreciation and depreciation.  Its not a perfect system, but none is.  I'm leaning more and more towards throwing intelligence out as a stat also and replacing with a mental agility statistic of some sort.  The more nimble the mind the more quickly you can cast spells for instance, but I haven't given it enough thought yet.

[Unnamed_Source]

Some basic physical stats are Strength, Agility, and Endurance, which affect how strong your character is, how fast, and for how long they can go. I would mirror the same for magic, such as Magic strength, Magic Speed, and Magic Endurance. Intelligence does not really have to play a part, and Charisma does not belong in there at all.

Those 3 magic stats are summed up by intelligence. The charisma stat influences certain magic ways that are attributed to your character charm or lack there of. ie a Charm <NPC> spell. Giving the game time to evolve, we might be limited in groups by how much charisma the leader has, limiting the number of followers, experience shared, and over all effectiveness. this is not a magic only game, there are other aspects that use or will use these stats. And adding more stats will only complicate things. Like wise, Will as well falls under the magical stats you propose, do you want to get rid of that too? Or is this just ploy to rename them to more magic friendly terms?

[Under the moon]

Wrong, wrong, and wrong. Those three stats are -not- summed up by intelligence, just as physical stats are -not- summed up by intelligence either. Intelligence is the ability to use what skills you have in the best way your mental ability sees fit. I say 'you' because it is the player that decides what the best path is, not the character. Dividing the one supposed INT stat into three distinct ‘MAGIC’ stats give the players more room to customize their character through leveling. Then you can either make a character that can cast many small spells quickly, or one that focuses on large and complex spells.

It seems that many people are under the assumption that intelligence is a prerequisite for magic. In this case, they are completely wrong. In all games I have played, the creatures of the games can do almost identically the same magic as the characters can. Are those creatures intelligent? Not at all, if you compare them to the characters. Is PS going to leave out any magical creatures based on that? Hardly. And how many times have you seen the big dumb guy with the super powerful magic spells? Yes, the one that can barely spell his name, but somehow he has mastered high level magic. Even the Glyph system in the game does not seem to actually need to use intelligence, as it is a tool and mana based system, not a mental. Magic is an incarnation of the body and spirit, not a side affect of intelligence.

I am not trying to rename anything. I am saying the stats INT and CHA can -not- exist without conflict in a game with both live players and NPCs. It creates a fracture in how your character interacts with other players and NPCs. In a single player game, it works great, as -all- other characters will read your CHA stat, and believe that you could be a charismatic person, or your INT stat, and see that you may be smart. That believability is suspended the instant you talk to a -real- person in a multiplayer game. How you play and speak then dictates how you are seen. A Spirit or Magic Ability stat or stats do not have that fracture. You can do what magic you can do, and players and NPCs alike will see the same thing, and react accordingly.

That limiting aspect with CHA that you mentioned sends chills through me. Step back and imagine what would happen if that were the case. Suddenly, not only do you have to level up all your skills and attributes, but now you have to level up your -personality- as well! Are you going to suggest that you can not even talk to certain other players if your charisma is not high enough, or that you can not complete a quest because your character would not be smart enough to figure out the riddle, despite that fact that -you- know the answer? Not likely.

INT and CHA -cause- more problems than they solve. You can not force players to play or react ‘correctly’ to these two stats. You can not count on players to have the ability to even play up or down to the ‘level’ of INT or CHA their character has. Speaking of levels, how do you even interpret the number you are given for the two mental stats? Two people with 100 INT are not going to play it the same, as it is open to interpretation. Unless you want to write a tutorial for how to RP each and every level. Honestly, how many people do you know that can perfectly play a character that is maxxed out in either INT or CHA? I can’t name a single one, despite how awesome I think a great many players are. I know I don’t have that ability. That would be the same as telling players they have to be as equally skilled in real life with a sword as their characters are in the game. It simple is not feasible.

As for ‘WILL’, you must have missed my first post, were I clearly stated it should be kept in the game.

--Induane, might I suggest a tri-stat for magic? Speed-Volume-Reserve (by other names)

Speed sets the length of timeout between spells. Level up, and you can cast spells more rapidly.

Volume sets the ‘size limit’ for spells. Level up to cast higher magics.

Reserve sets the typical ‘mana’ in reserve.

And yes, toss out intelligence.

[Seytra]

I'm a little undecided on this. Obviously, the rift between NPCs and PCs is very much there. It does exist, to a degree, with physical stats, as bilbous has said, but that's not a big issue, especially because they're less noticable than the mental stats should be / are, and can be worked around / ignored as well.

CHA is used in some games in conjunction with empathy, a skill that will be in PS as well. It is also used in magic systems to define how much control you have over creatures you have summoned, including how well they will serve you, for how long, what the chances of them turning against you are, etc., IOW "magical empathy". It can even define how well a PC can train another character, should that ever become implemented (with low CHA, people are less likely to bear with you, and you're less able to adapt to their specific character in order to ease their progression). Thus it isn't completely useless WRT game mechanics, and AFAICS the same as e.g. STR (obviously one'd RP being able to summon / control 6 Clackers... or not being able).

WIL and INT are similar.
The issue is now that all of us are used to the physical stats limiting what we can do ingame, while the experience of our mental stats limiting us ingame is nonexistant. I am not sure if, should it become implemented that one can't get all clues for riddles, etc., people would complain a lot. They would simply do what they do now with physical stats: max them out, and then either RP it, or just RP whatever they like.

In this light, the difference between mental stats in terms of game mechanics, and in terms of other players, are just as big as those between physical stats between game mechanics and players.
Agility is a very interesting one, because it's got a great difference. All players are limited by the movement system, and even if it undoubtedly could be better, it will never really be truly immersive, as long as there's no direct mental link.
Therefore, agility doesn't show at all, and the best we can hope for is that agile chars can eventually run faster. Maybe one could even customise the turning rate within the limits of the AGI stat, but that's about it. So AGI doesn't show to others, even though in combat one could deduce it, but since combat itself is anything but RP the audience for this subtlety doesn't really exist AFAICS.

Same with STR: almost never in an RP scenario is STR being used. Most players have loads of junk with them, be it because there is no bank, or because they don't really care. In an RP situation, it's hardly used, unless you're running somewhere. However, that almost always doesn't occur in an RP way, anyway: the movement system does not allow you to RP while running / walking, so you don't. Running therefore takes place mostly between RP: you go to Ojaveda to RP there, and in this light, it more or less just hampers RP, because you can't really get where you want to be as fast as theoretically possible.
Even if RPing travelling or carrying things, STR isn't necessarily accurate due to the aforementioned junk. IOW, all the stats are more or less just for the game mechanics, in order to create a system that is not free-form RP, which is most needed in PvP, of course.

In PS, skills and stats are somewhat odd, anyway, since it seems like every PC has not gained any of them until the control of them is taken over by a player. Once that happened, the PC then gains skills and levels at an incredible rate. However, that rate is different for every PC, because it depends solely on the player, not the character.

Therefore, one has to either live with what one can train WRT time and player endurence, or RP what one envisions one's char to be. Thus, RPing being exhausted whenever the game says so is is just as well as ignoring it.

Therefore I am really unsure of whether to keep or to ditch the stats. Just as anything ingame, it can be made use of for RP occasionally, but most of the time it can't. The most useful thing WRT RP IMO is animations, closely followed by all other visuals, while anything else needs to be heavily interpreted and used very carefully.

Of course, when the game mechanics are more advanced, and different stats and skills are needed in a group, they'll gain more importance. However, as I already said, then they'll simply be levelled more, not RP'd better.
In a way, wouldn't it be rather sad if there's a newbie whom you like, but you can't take them with you on your quests because they're so much weaker than you in all skill / stat respects, while your RP doesn't differ in any way?

As long as the game is based around levelling, RP and game mechanics will either differ greatly or RP will be adjusted to the increase in skills / stats, regardless how realistic / likely that would be in terms of the personality of the char. Therefore, it doesn't really matter if you keep or throw out any stats...

[bilbous]

I do not see why you would need to exclude the low-level character, you might need to coddle and protect him and he may end up clawing his way out of the DR more often. In RPG terms Merry and Pippen did not start out very strong nor did Samwise or Frodo (Bilbo even, for that matter) but they are grew into their armor so to speak. The way the leveling system currently works is not such that your low level compatriots can earn their place as they go along and that is why I think there should be progression with use, faster with the training but continuous even without.

[Unnamed_Source]

Again I'm finding the conflict people are having differentiating between Character and Player. Where as the two are treated as one and the same, even though it is the player that is controling the chracter, the character in the end it is one that plays and is essentially living the part in the game and NOT the player. I know it is hard to comprehend since the Character is like a puppet extention of the Player but if it was just a marionette, this would just be a chat room. MMO are more than a chatroom, they add bounderies and limits to the character that the player has to abide by, not as the player but as the character. Leaving all of the players RL characteristics and taking on those of the character. which in this case, involve stats that might not agree with how the player is in real life.
 

Wrong, wrong, and wrong. Those three stats are -not- summed up by intelligence, just as physical stats are -not- summed up by intelligence either. Intelligence is the ability to use what skills you have in the best way your mental ability sees fit. I say 'you' because it is the player that decides what the best path is, not the character. Dividing the one supposed INT stat into three distinct ‘MAGIC’ stats give the players more room to customize their character through leveling. Then you can either make a character that can cast many small spells quickly, or one that focuses on large and complex spells.

But "Magic" in not the only name of the game, there are other aspects to PS other than magic that require an Int score. This might be the best idea yet where magic is concerned but it give the short straw to the rest of the game as a result.

It seems that many people are under the assumption that intelligence is a prerequisite for magic. In this case, they are completely wrong. In all games I have played, the creatures of the games can do almost identically the same magic as the characters can. Are those creatures intelligent? Not at all, if you compare them to the characters. Is PS going to leave out any magical creatures based on that? Hardly. And how many times have you seen the big dumb guy with the super powerful magic spells? Yes, the one that can barely spell his name, but somehow he has mastered high level magic. Even the Glyph system in the game does not seem to actually need to use intelligence, as it is a tool and mana based system, not a mental. Magic is an incarnation of the body and spirit, not a side affect of intelligence.

Mana is derived from intelligence, it and will are the two stata that shows mental prowess like strength and endurance shows for the physical side. If you want to expand it further, so be it but then which of the three will be rolled for a language check or lore check, checks that have nothing to do with magic but still require a die roll and a check agains stome, now deleted stat.

Now if a magic tree(vegetable) can cast spells and so there for the village fool can too, even though he is a prime contender for the Special Olympics and can't tie his shoes or let alone comprehend what magic is, yet he raised those three stats so that he can, i show you there, the mirror image to your NPC "magic" monster in a PC form, the magical retard. Now, you might say he is no village fool with those three stats maxed, but who's to say since there is not stat to mesure IQ, this metal prowess of a dog turd can then cast spells like the best of them and RP the imbacil drooling on himself since he is a magic being, or so your proposed stats say. Alas if we did have intelligence, a GM could come along and notice his stupid behavour and permanently lower his Int score to more closely reflect his "dumb" outlook, there by eliminating this freak of nature from  ever casting another bolt of death again.

Listen, players will raise their stats and play the complete opposite, why, because they can. whether is those three stats just for magic or the lone but all encompasing Intelligence. Players will be stat whores no matter what, but that is why MMOs have staff to keep the overly trouble some in check.

I am not trying to rename anything. I am saying the stats INT and CHA can -not- exist without conflict in a game with both live players and NPCs. It creates a fracture in how your character interacts with other players and NPCs. In a single player game, it works great, as -all- other characters will read your CHA stat, and believe that you could be a charismatic person, or your INT stat, and see that you may be smart. That believability is suspended the instant you talk to a -real- person in a multiplayer game. How you play and speak then dictates how you are seen. A Spirit or Magic Ability stat or stats do not have that fracture. You can do what magic you can do, and players and NPCs alike will see the same thing, and react accordingly.

Players will interact with other players how ever which way they please, ignoring what ever their character would do other wise. Just how Str, Dex, etc control the player on how they can interact with the game through their character, so in a future version will Charisma and Intelliegence play their part. Str is easy code, X level of str needed for certain armor and simple to put into an equation for damage modifiers. Intelliegenc eand charisma take a little longer to develop, a leadership skill limiting the group structure witht he charisma stat influencing that skill or  comprehention of the game surounding based off the character intelligence score. those will take longer to hash out since they need additioal skills and code, but eventually like the strength checks we have now, so will we have intelligence and charisma checks. For example, say you neglected the characters, intelligence and he is as dumb as rock. should you as an english major influence this dumb character as to speak(write) elequenlty and precise with out a typo or faulter? I would rather see code enforcing their limit and force a player to choose simple words and sentences in order to convay they part of an idiot Character. I would like to see code that made leaders train charismain order to get the most out of their followers, PC or NPC, and like wise the followers in return getting the most from charismatic characters.And with out a stat to measure up, there can be nothing to code with.

That limiting aspect with CHA that you mentioned sends chills through me. Step back and imagine what would happen if that were the case. Suddenly, not only do you have to level up all your skills and attributes, but now you have to level up your -personality- as well! Are you going to suggest that you can not even talk to certain other players if your charisma is not high enough, or that you can not complete a quest because your character would not be smart enough to figure out the riddle, despite that fact that -you- know the answer? Not likely.

So I take it you don't level your other stats, your sole interaction with in the game is sitting around chatting(RP) with your friends, like a 3D messenger. So this might seem a little harsh, having to level a stat that will interfere with your RP because instead of Role Playing your character, infact you are Role Playing yourself. Heaven forbid you have to limit yourself to what your characters state is, why not get rid of all the stats and skills and just make PS one of those 3D visual chatrooms. This would be most beneficial to you as then you would not have to interact as a CHARACTER but as YOU the PLAYER.

INT and CHA -cause- more problems than they solve. You can not force players to play or react ‘correctly’ to these two stats. You can not count on players to have the ability to even play up or down to the ‘level’ of INT or CHA their character has. Speaking of levels, how do you even interpret the number you are given for the two mental stats? Two people with 100 INT are not going to play it the same, as it is open to interpretation. Unless you want to write a tutorial for how to RP each and every level. Honestly, how many people do you know that can perfectly play a character that is maxxed out in either INT or CHA? I can’t name a single one, despite how awesome I think a great many players are. I know I don’t have that ability. That would be the same as telling players they have to be as equally skilled in real life with a sword as their characters are in the game. It simple is not feasible.

You cannot hold players ascountable for anything that goes on in a MMO, since they are a little bit harder to hack than a stand alone game, the majority of players will just thumb their nose at the rules and the RP environment till they get caught in the act and repremanded. The best an MMO can do is set up a structure where the player is forced into their characters role, rather than the other way around and try to keep a sensible atmosphere for all to enjoy. Now the limits to stats might seem harsh, I know, it took me a while, carrying the dead weight of chain armor in my inventory cause I did not know the correct strength level to wear it, but they make the players play the role of their character and develop their characters with in the game, rather than having an instant dwarven physicist becuse the player is a Rocket Scientist. Because that is how all players are, they try and bring anything from the outside to give them an advantage over the environment or other players. If a body builder could some how imbue his strength onto his character, he would. Intelliegence and in a limited way charisma and will are the only attributes the player can channel through his character. knowledge of the land/quest/etc of which his current character would rightly have no knowledge of but yet the player in his ever present persuit of an edge will rightly use all knowldge to his full advantage, forgoing all the characters true attributes. So a Don Juan in RL plays a character that he has not developed its Charisma, should, cause he is so charasmatic in RL be allowed to play the most charamatic character in the game? NO. Now can you keep the player from NOT using please and thank yous, no. But you can limit his interaction  vs the environment  of the game, limit how great a leader he is in groups, So those underhim do not recieve the full benefits of someone with a higher Charisma score, even though he may be the Don Juan to out do all other Don Juans, his character is no Juan at all and that is who is truely in the game.(the Character)
 

As for ‘WILL’, you must have missed my first post, were I clearly stated it should be kept in the game.

Will Is the equivilent of intelligence in a spiritual sense. Inner strength and like that of an inner beauty, ie charisma. The three overlap each other, take out Intelligence or Charisma and might as well take Will out too.

[Under the moon]

Good points, Seytra and bilbous. Truthfully, it seems to me that most stats are not RPed by, be they physical or mental. I personally know many a good RPer disregard stats completely. Not because they could not RP by them, but because Creation does not allow them to create the character they wish to play. I do try my best to keep true to the physical stats garnered in Creation, but ignore the mental. Physical stats are the body, and how it reacts to the environment, and are therefore the realm of the game. Mental stats are personality, and belong to me alone.

As said, the reason RPers will ignore the stats is that the character they wish to create simply can not be created. I'll be the first to admit that I have a 'cheat sheet' to Creation and all of its options, and I am not ashamed to use it when trying to create a specific type of character. But even with all the numbers, it is hard to get just what you want, and then you have to disregard all of the 'background' choices you made.

A few folks have asked me why I don't "Stop being lazy, and just level your character up to where you need it." And even Talad himself has told me to just have a friend do the leveling for me. Some of the folks reading this may not understand the aversion to either of those 'suggestions', but any avid RPer will cringe at the very thought. It is just something that can't be explained if you don't feel it yourself.

Back to the stats themselves, the reason they are ignored in RP is that there are little to no RP elements that use physical stats. The only kind of fighting you can do generally ends in death, which is truly limited in roleplaying. Most RPed fights end in one person being overpowered by the other, not killed. The stats and system do not support that, though. Therefore they both get ignored.

Ill give one more example of the difference in physical stats, and why they are needed, and mental stats, and why they are not.

Let us say the Devs create a new maze map. It is very devious, with many traps and twists. You have a character that is very low level in both INT, AGI and STR. You come upon one part where the path is blocked by a large boulder. RP your heart out, but that boulder is not going to move, and you can not climb well enough to get over it. The only way to move it is to have high enough STR to push it out of the way. Now, you decide to just go another way, and use your brains to solve the maze. Remember, your -character's- INT stat claims you should not be able to find your way out of an open door, but you can easily find your way out. Let's also say you have very low CHA as a stat. Very low. You should not be able to convince a starving Kran to eat. But you can easily walk back out of the maze and convince a random person to come help push that rock out of the way.

I know some people will read that and say people should just RP by their stats then. I tell you now that that will never happen.

CHA could be used as Seytra suggested, but is it really worth the bother? Use the empathy skill alone when controlling animals, and use the teaching skill alone for teaching. No need of using CHA or INT as a modifier.

In other threads, I have talked about leveling vs. RP. Though I am 100% against having to level mental/personality skills, I have nothing against getting stronger/better physically/skills-wise. That is as a -choice-, though, not as the standard, cut-from-the-mold PL RPG type of games. I still hope to one day be able to create more 'mature' characters with the exact stats you want right from Creation. With sacrifices, of course. But that is another thread entirely.

I guess the sum of all this writing is that physical stats are needed, but personality stats are not. Simplify things and just vanish them.

Edit* Unnamed_Source, I, personal, have the ability to play any type of character and stay within the set 'stats' Most people, however, do not. Should a Pearson who has a charismatic personality in real life have the choice to play the most charismatic person in the game? Yes. Should a person who is not charismatic in real life be able to play the most charismatic person in the game? No. Why? Because they simply do not have the ability. 'Stats' give the false impression that you can do that, just because you are a higher level. It is not believable.

EDIT2* In your statement, you say you would like to see a word limiter for low INT characters so you can not appear smarter than your character. What are you going to do for unintelligent players (pardons)? Add a text enhancer to make them seem as smart as their character? Are you going to add a prompter for 'charasmatic things to say' if your character has high charisma, but you are a hermit that lives out in the woods? Be realistic.

[Unnamed_Source]

Good points, Seytra and bilbous. Truthfully, it seems to me that most stats are not RPed by, be they physical or mental. I personally know many a good RPer disregard stats completely. Not because they could not RP by them, but because Creation does not allow them to create the character they wish to play. I do try my best to keep true to the physical stats garnered in Creation, but ignore the mental. Physical stats are the body, and how it reacts to the environment, and are therefore the realm of the game. Mental stats are personality, and belong to me alone.

Wrong, All the stats should have reactions with in the game, just cause it is not in the game now, that doesn't mean it should not be. You are not playing yourself in the game you are playing a character with the limits of its stats, not your limits. And so be it if you are not wiling to RP your stats, like the strength requirement for armor there should be one day a mentalrequirement, be that a limited speech/vocabulary or anotehr disability. If that effects your ability to RP, that is the consequence of playing in an MMORPG that take into account other aspects besides RP and still have to deal all of them a fair hand. Like your character now being able to wear chain armor cause you do not feel like leveling his strength.

As said, the reason RPers will ignore the stats is that the character they wish to create simply can not be created. I'll be the first to admit that I have a 'cheat sheet' to Creation and all of its options, and I am not ashamed to use it when trying to create a specific type of character. But even with all the numbers, it is hard to get just what you want, and then you have to disregard all of the 'background' choices you made.

That breed of RPer wants god mods, they do not want to work or eveolve their character, but just sit around like ina a chat room and instantly be the hero of day. So why have any stats or skills or anything for that matter, a simple 3D chat would do just fine.

A few folks have asked me why I don't "Stop being lazy, and just level your character up to where you need it." And even Talad himself has told me to just have a friend do the leveling for me. Some of the folks reading this may not understand the aversion to either of those 'suggestions', but any avid RPer will cringe at the very thought. It is just something that can't be explained if you don't feel it yourself.

In your case, an "Avid RPer"  would think IRC is the perfect place to have a game. I don't see how "avid RPer" such as yourself are drawn to places like this that have stats and skills and crafting and PK, as it seem to all go against your nature. Mind you I'm agains leveling, for the same reasons as you , cause it's a pain in the ass and quite the snore fest after a while. But unlike oyu I also enjoy the other aspects of MMOs, and I am willing to under go a bit of displeasure just to see what is on the other side.

Back to the stats themselves, the reason they are ignored in RP is that there are little to no RP elements that use physical stats. The only kind of fighting you can do generally ends in death, which is truly limited in roleplaying. Most RPed fights end in one person being overpowered by the other, not killed. The stats and system do not support that, though. Therefore they both get ignored.

If you are just going to chat, then everything can be ignored. RP is not just about brandishing wits on a teleprompt. You are taking on a role and like real life you got to work at it, mature with it not just sit around and banter. The stats are the most important part of the RP, because they are what define the character, the very persona you are now playing as. Remeber you are taking on a role, not playing yourself. Anything less and you might be and "avid something" but certainly no RPer.

Ill give one more example of the difference in physical stats, and why they are needed, and mental stats, and why they are not.

[/quote]

Let us say the Devs create a new maze map. It is very devious, with many traps and twists. You have a character that is very low level in both INT, AGI and STR. You come upon one part where the path is blocked by a large boulder. RP your heart out, but that boulder is not going to move, and you can not climb well enough to get over it. The only way to move it is to have high enough STR to push it out of the way. Now, you decide to just go another way, and use your brains to solve the maze. Remember, your -character's- INT stat claims you should not be able to find your way out of an open door, but you can easily find your way out. Let's also say you have very low CHA as a stat. Very low. You should not be able to convince a starving Kran to eat. But you can easily walk back out of the maze and convince a random person to come help push that rock out of the way.

Let us say the Devs create ... and in the middle of the maze you confront a beast that blocks your path, not even an army can slay it. Sure enough your firned that bothered to train his CHA can lul it to sleep ... you enter a room with a mechanical trap, an ingious device, but not needing be since even untieg shoe laces proves a daunting task for your character, no this requires an INT check, too bad the entry way was cealed and the cealing is dropping, well after you get out of the DR you can ask your intelliegent and dextrous buddy to help you out. Oh but wait wasn't the entrance to this cave guarded by the city guards, being that it was "very devious, with many traps and twists" they wouldn't let you go on all alone, so a group was needed with leader capable to leader all your buddies. Maybe that charismatic buddy could lead this band and while all the others work you can come along for the ride.

I know some people will read that and say people should just RP by their stats then. I tell you now that that will never happen.

You are absolutely right, that is why you got to have check and balances like the strength requirement for medium armor. There will be the same for Intelligence, charisma, Will, dexterity, etc.

... Though I am 100% against having to level mental/personality skills,

but that is the key here, the mental/personality stats are of your character, not you. No matter how you are in RL this is not how the character is in the game. His stats are not your stats, your knowledge is not his, and even if you don't want to play with those stats you should be penalized all the same. ie strength vs armor type.

I still hope to one day be able to create more 'mature' characters with the exact stats you want right from Creation. With sacrifices, of course.

But like your earlier comment about people never playing their stats, so too will people for go the sacrifices as the make insta gods. Now on the other hand I would like this as I wouldn't ahve to level and instatly be able to craft and do anything. but like cheating though a stand alone game, it will get boring quite as fast as leveling and it;s off to the next challenge, key word challenge.

I guess the sum of all this writing is that physical stats are needed, but personality stats are not. Simplify things and just vanish them.

All the stats are needed, they are all the of the CHARACTERS Personality ... even if the player doesn't wish to use them.

Should a Pearson who has a charismatic personality in real life have the choice to play the most charismatic person in the game?

Only if his stats allow him to

. Should a person who is not charismatic in real life be able to play the most charismatic person in the game?

Only if his stats allow him to

Are you going to add a prompter for 'charasmatic things to say' if your character has high charisma, but you are a hermit that lives out in the woods? Be realistic.

No enhancements, just detraction. It would be the coincidence if both the high INT character and your low INT character spoke at the same level but like the retard in RL playing that high INT character so too is your character in the game a retard and the detractions are there to keep that realisty in line. Your character never learnt to read or write and a hase a very basic vocabulary, why do you get to elevate his INT by yours, that goes against the role you chose to play, in this case of a retard. AND this is realistic.

BTW, you can get Internet reception in the woods? where?? I want to move there! the whole notion of Ted Kazinski in a one bedroom shack in the middle of nowhere with nobody around for miles had that one negative going for it  that all correspondace with the outside world was done through a manual typewriter, not worth the move, I'll stay a Urban Hermit. BUT if you know of a desolate woods someplace with excellant telecom reception, both in and out, satialite just wont cut it, Please spill the beans.

Rememebr its the Character, not the Player who's in the game.

[Under the moon]

In your case, an "Avid RPer"  would think IRC is the perfect place to have a game. I don't see how "avid RPer" such as yourself are drawn to places like this that have stats and skills and crafting and PK, as it seem to all go against your nature. Mind you I'm agains leveling, for the same reasons as you , cause it's a pain in the ass and quite the snore fest after a while. But unlike oyu I also enjoy the other aspects of MMOs, and I am willing to under go a bit of displeasure just to see what is on the other side.

Now I see the problem. You completely misunderstand me, my intentions, how I play, what I enjoy, and basically everything about me. I'll explain it in detail in a PM later.

Edit* One more thing. If it is -just- the character in the game, and the -player- should bring nothing of themself into it, as you seem to be suggesting, then you might as well shut the chat down completely and go with preselected responses that you can click on to talk to both NPCs and players. Better yet, don't even let players choose responses, and let the character decide what should be said. And take out movement as well. You would not want a player going somewhere their character would not, or doing something that goes against their character traits. Then, you -have- to play and talk by your exact stats. There is no other way. In fact, why don't the Devs just make a PS movie instead of a game, and just tell people who they are in the movie? By Jove, everyone would be the perfect RPer then.

[Unnamed_Source]

Now I see the problem. You completely misunderstand me, my intentions, how I play, what I enjoy, and basically everything about me. I'll explain it in detail in a PM later.

No PMs, I could care less, if you have anything to say say it out here in the open or don't say it at all.

Edit* One more thing. If it is -just- the character in the game, and the -player- should bring nothing of themself into it, as you seem to be suggesting, then you might as well shut the chat down completely and go with preselected responses that you can click on to talk to both NPCs and players. Better yet, don't even let players choose responses, and let the character decide what should be said. And take out movement as well. You would not want a player going somewhere their character would not, or doing something that goes against their character traits. Then, you -have- to play and talk by your exact stats. There is no other way. In fact, why don't the Devs just make a PS movie instead of a game, and just tell people who they are in the movie? By Jove, everyone would be the perfect RPer then.

Leave the player at the door. You do not go out for a part ona play and then play yourself. Try and have some separation between you and your character. I agree that none here are ever going to be actors on the big or little screen but at the very least they can try, and if they just can't simple limitations based on the stats will help them along, ie strength vs what armor your character can wear.

If you start taking out stats because they don't agree with how you want to play your character, then all the stats should go. The stats limit how a player structures their characters and defines how the character will interact in the game envrionment, no matter how brillant or strong the player might be in real life.

[Feline Prince]

We can be involved mentally with what goes on in the game but not physically so the mental stats aren't needed but the physical are.

Try and have some separation between you and your character.

Its meant to be an immersive experience.

[Unnamed_Source]

We can be involved mentally with what goes on in the game but not physically so the mental stats aren't needed but the physical are.

  You might be a blackbelt in real life, having that mental knowledge, should you be allowed to carry it on to your character? Like wise, you are a mechanical engineer, that MENTAL knowledge would allow you to build a crude but effective steam engine, with the little INT your character has, would your character even conceive such a notion let alone build one? if your character has a alow stat, you should have to play with that low stat, it is easy to conceive such limitations on stats that you have no control over but what if you did, tif there were sensory gloves or even body suits that you could endow your RL life physical embodyment onto your character, would you then be asking for the removal of the physical stats as well? I can run the four minute mile so my character should not be limited by this low endurance, sounds kind of silly with todays technology but it is just as silly as giving all your mental capacities to a low intellegent character. And I have asked this before, who is in the game environment, you,the player, or your character?

Its meant to be an immersive experience.

Then why even have characters? We should have bio's like a dating sirvice questionare of ourselves and every one plays themselves, no races just regular humans that think and talk and do everything that we can do in RL. We'll have to up the time lines cause their ain't many Blacksmiths around in RL anymore, let alone any that play on Computers. So the new trades are computer/mechanical engineering and the not yet implemented Liberal Arts. Martial arts and guns would be the fighting norm. Like an on line Grand Theft Auto, except we don't play the role of the hood but the of the role of the schmucks getting car jacked, cause not many gangbangers play computer games or have the computers to play them. Yes thats quite immersive, we play ourselves, not very Role Playish but it is immersive, an MMORLG.

Immersive yes but filtered through the role you are playing, with ALL the limits inherited by that character. Let me ask you, do you play all your charactes the same, no matter the race or gender?

[Feline Prince]

I'm not talking about mental knowledge. Talking about personality traits such as intelligence and charisma. Immersive experience doesn't mean you ARE the character, it just means that you are involved in their decisions and can feel that it is a living breathing world you are having an input into.