Death in PS: Negligibility?

[Seytra]

I must say that the new books have disappointed me. They seem to cement the status quo of the game mechanics instead of the original intent of the DR. Take for example the comment about people being easily able to exit the DR anytime, regardless of their faith or lack thereof. Take the example of diaboli "dying in creative ways for the experience". All of that suggests that the DR is a walk in the park, not even the weekend trip these quests suggest.

Granted, the statement that repeatedly dying takes some toll on the body means that one can't do that infinitely often, but it also means that one can do that for quite a while, and for that to be an issue at all, the exiting from the DR must be very easy and fast (as otherwise people wouldn't be able to exit it sufficiently often).

The changing nature of the DR, as described in the book, seems to be another try to explain OOC things IC-ly, like the past and future modifications and enhancements to the DR map, and therefore isn't different from the "plague" in Ojaveda. IMO, these things are OOC and must not be dragged IC.

Also, WRT poisons killing you over and over again, the book says there are _some rare_ poisions that do that. This means that all commonly available poisons are, in fact, one-time only. IOW, permanent death is hard to achieve.

Add to that that the books don't at all read like there's torment, or in fact anything besides lack of light. Given that in the DR one is, according to the books, pretty much immortal, it might even be preferrable to the WOTL. In fact, if there's "life" native to the DR, which can be killed (contrary to people from the WOTL, who can't be killed in the DR), this means that dead people even are privileged over the DR's life, which is questionable all by itself, adding even more incentive to staying dead.

Regarding loss of new players, the problem is that a new player is unlikely to know whether PS is actually worth their time or not. Even if they're an RPer, they might not be convinced, since there are many MMORPGs with an elaborate story which aren't about RP. IOW, if they don't think it's worth the hassle, they might not give it a try. This may or may not be good, but it's something to be kept in mind. Note that I'm all for keeping non-RP-minded people from even downloading the client; I'm just not sure if this has any filtering effect.

All in all the DR has lost much of it's mystery, and it's also lost it's scariness, IC-ly. Up until now, it was possible and justifiable, via the scarce information in the settings, to RP death as something that is final except in very rare circumstances, and therefore a normal character would try to avoid it if at all possible. Now, however, it's not possible to RP death as anything bigger than a prolonged trip, in the worst case making you miss some appointments. That is, unless you 1) ignore the new books (thereby stepping outside the setting) or 2) RP that you don't know them (and of course ignore all the obvious and verifiable proof). In fact, the book can be even used to legitimise the use of /die for a shortcut.

I wonder when the DR inhabitants will put a tax on wares transported through the DR, not to mention noise-restriction laws, or outright banning transit traffic from certain areas during nighttime or somesuch.

The only good thing, RP-wise, is that most people whom I RP with have not shown tendencies to die frequently, therefore I can remain "clueless" IC-ly, and therefore can keep RPing resurrection as something very very rare.

[Jeraphon]

They seem to cement the status quo of the game mechanics instead of the original intent of the DR.

So what you're saying is, you'd prefer that the books tell you that the DR doesn't work in the way that PCs actually experience it.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Nothing is carved in stone(hehehe except yliakum) PS is a living world, things change. Just because you went years being able to make up whatever came into your head and spent years with a handful of less than ideal books and some loose information from website does not mean that those books will be the final word on anything.

The best part about settings in PS is that it can evolve with the state of the game. The author of those books both irl and in game is still alive and he or he may well have other things to tell you. This whole thread is fairly pointless as you all know the death realm will not remain as it is.

You can expect changes and explanations made by npcs to sometimes be inaccurate and amended by themselves or other npc authors. You can expect unreliable narrators of differing visions and perceptions of the truth of the Yliakum cosmos. You as rpers can adapt to the changing state of information available in game.

What you cannot do is dictate how things are going to go. What you cannot is believe your vision of ps is shared with all players, or the devteam. What i would hope the players would consider is that they do not know everything, I would like them to not assume that each idea they have is unique or that it has not been discussed internally. Nothing will ever move fast enough. Nothing will ever be free from complaint.

People who take the time to write articulate well thought out critiques should really consider applying. Then you will know more and have more influence in realizing your own ambitions for the game. I can speak for the dev team in one regard, we do read the forums your thoughts do reach us, but honestly, we probably are just as dissatisfied with certain elements of the game as the players are if not moreso.

This thread's arguments have definitely been a subject of debate among devs and no poster in this thread has added even an iota to what the team will eventually do to resolve issues regarding the death realm. As far as being told a book is disappointing or the settings seem to tape together the engine or that OOC issues must not be taken Icly, I completely disagree, and have the privilege of happily overriding that view with each stroke of my keyboard. How many books do you think Londris Kolaim will write? I have some idea but I am under an NDA, I can however hint in this manner: he has an eternity, and you will have to wait and see.

Happy gaming! 

[CrazyYlian]

Well, I certainly can't say I've seen everything in this game, and the DR has a lot I've never explored, but this thread is interesting so I'll toss in my $0.02...

The DR as it is now seems like a good solution to the age old problem in games of how to deal mortal damage when permanent death would discourage most people from playing at all.  So a place that you go from death that presents a way back to life is IMO a very good compromise, much better than putting you right back in game after relieving you of money.  It does seem like there should be *some* penalty to make death more than a momentary inconvenience, though.

My suggestion would be to impose that penalty not in the DR itself, but upon return to the WOTL*.  Sort of like a "hangover" from dying.  You return to your world, but weak, maybe HP, END & MANA are decreased to a percentage of your normal and only slowly return to normal over say a couple days.  That would
(a) discourage people from using DR as a shortcut between towns,
(B) resolve the issues raised in another thread about fighting and guildwars (fighting never ending and ambushing the DR spawn point).  Killed players would simply be unable to return to the fighting right away.
(C) it would be fair to newbies. Being a percentage, newbies would take a lesser hit than more experienced players.  It would permit gameplay to continue, mining, questing or crafting could still be done, just at a reduced pace.

*I suppose the penalty could be imposed upon dying, that might give a reason to hang around DR more while waiting to recover...

[Seytra]

They seem to cement the status quo of the game mechanics instead of the original intent of the DR.

So what you're saying is, you'd prefer that the books tell you that the DR doesn't work in the way that PCs actually experience it.

Actually, what I'm trying to say is that I'd prefer the books to read as if the DR already was as it is (was) supposed to be like, regardless of how a player experiences it ATM. This is done in almost all other parts of PS, enabling the RPers to keep RPing something non-trivial. It wouldn't bother the non-RPers, as they don't read the books anyway (or if they do, just ignore them either way).

Obviously it would be best if the implementation would catch up with the intention, but as with almost all other parts of the game, that isn't going to happen in the near future. Nontheless, all content should be based on what the intended content is supposed to be, instead of reflecting what is there now. This really is the same as with the nonimplemented races, or the lack of customisation. There are already NPCs who talk about areas that aren't implemented (and won't be for ages), and that's how things should be everywhere.

Clearly, not close to everything is known how it'll become, and it's not necessary to go out of one's way to foresee where exactly an NPC will end up in the long run. However, these are minor issues, not having any impact on the world, whereas major things like the DR or placement / sizes of cities do.

So, naturally, there shouldn't be quests leading to unimplemented places, but there also should be no quests leading to places that one can't be reasonably expected to reach in the "final" version. IOW, the DR itself may contain quests, but those must be confined to the DR itself, and all quests in the WOTL must also be confined to the WOTL. The (rare) quests that do cross these borders must state how the transition is achieved, to not create the impression that it's an everyday thing.

If the settings adhere to what the implementation is, instead of what the final world is supposed to be, RP will become stale. If, however, the settings stay true to the final vision, then everyone who cares will readily understand that the implementation isn't en par with that vision yet, but be able to work around the differences.
Yes, that will lead to occasional threads by some non-RPers about why the DR is so much easier than the books say. However, this is much preferrable to having all RP limited by nothing but the limits of the implementation.

Please note that this doesn't mean that the concept of the DR could (should?) not be improved or possibly redesigned, as has been proposed occasionally: this is something different entirely. A redesign would, however, aim for improving consistency with the remaining settings, and seek to address the issues that have come up WRT RPing the DR. On the other hand, changing the settings to whatever the implementation provides at any given time maybe creates consistency with the implementation (until that is updated again), but it will become less and less consistent within the settings and within itself (saying "everything is always changing" cannot really be regarded as "consistent"). Also, it will set a bad example of "only RP what is implemented". Even without taking that as far as RPing no lying down, it'll end up confining all RP to a couple of very small maps, invisible walls and lots of holes in the world.

Just because you went years being able to make up whatever came into your head

Several people have done their very best to keep things within the settings and not to be presumptuous. Obviously, this cannot be said about everyone. Please also note that, as has been stated numerous times all over the board, the making up of things hardly was voluntary, and people would certainly have preferred to have some information instead of guesses. Information that is logical and consistent with the settings, not necessarily the implementation, that is.

and spent years with a handful of less than ideal books and some loose information from website does not mean that those books will be the final word on anything.

The best part about settings in PS is that it can evolve with the state of the game. The author of those books both irl and in game is still alive and he or he may well have other things to tell you. This whole thread is fairly pointless as you all know the death realm will not remain as it is.

Is this really a good thing? I think it has more than one problematic aspect, one being that of consistency: in a setting that keeps changing, RP loses it's meaning. It makes the matter of "make up whatever comes to your mind" worse, as everyone can easily claim "you don't know what the settings will be next week, so spaceships are just as valid as anything else!".
Regarding the pointlessness of this thread, it does emphasize the fact that RP (what PS claims to be all about) needs a death that actually is a threat. It also shows that this is not a mere academical issue, but one that actually affects those that try to RP meaningfully in PS, especially since this topic keeps arising, so it clearly is one of the more detrimental shortcomings.

You can expect changes and explanations made by npcs to sometimes be inaccurate and amended by themselves or other npc authors. You can expect unreliable narrators of differing visions and perceptions of the truth of the Yliakum cosmos. You as rpers can adapt to the changing state of information available in game.

We can expect NPCs to be inaccurate. We can also expect that changes will be made, and some things won't be thought out in all detail right from the start. We should, however, be able to assume that major, and I might even say fundamental, concepts have been thought through and considered in detail so they will not require changing. The DR, it's existance and workings are as fundamental as the existance and position of major cities, if not more. Really, this is on the same level as whether the grass is green: it can be readily verified by everyone in Yliakum. I find it unreasonable that even such basic information, things that everyone in Yliakum will know, has to be read up in books in some library. Such things belong on the website, and be precise and clear. The current state is like if IRL children would be expected to look up "sky" in wikipedia in order to find out what color it has. I assume that the reason why recently everything is being put into books and NPCs is that this will allow for chaning one's mind, even WRT settings basics. Even with PS in development and all that, it can be overdone, though.

What you cannot do is dictate how things are going to go. What you cannot is believe your vision of ps is shared with all players, or the devteam.

What one should be able to do is to read the available information and find out what the intent of the devteam is, instead of having to guess at even the most basic things. And most importantly, one should be able to expect that the vision of PS that the devteam has decided on to be made public, so that the players have a chance of sharing it. It would also be exceptionally nice if said vision would be accompanied by reasoning, especially if it touches problematic areas. There are statements on why the engine works as it does, but the settings either has "it's under NDA" or "we don't tell". Personal preference can only justify so much.

What i would hope the players would consider is that they do not know everything,

Most, if not all, of the issues that keep coming up are exactly because the players are told jack. Players have almost nothing to go by, and that creates differences in interpretation. If there is so much more already designed and written up, things which would clear up all of that, then actually releasing that might be something to consider. It would even go a long way if the general aim of the settings people WRT problematic issues like this was published somewhere on the website. Seriously, not telling anything and then complaining how few everyone else knows is a highly questionable attitude.

I would like them to not assume that each idea they have is unique or that it has not been discussed internally. Nothing will ever move fast enough. Nothing will ever be free from complaint.

People who take the time to write articulate well thought out critiques should really consider applying. Then you will know more

However, then one can't use that knowledge to align one's RP with the goals of PS because there's an NDA.

and have more influence in realizing your own ambitions for the game. I can speak for the dev team in one regard, we do read the forums your thoughts do reach us, but honestly, we probably are just as dissatisfied with certain elements of the game as the players are if not moreso.

The engine, sure. The client, definitely, but the settings? FAICT, the settings is free to go ahead without even looking at what the engine can do now. In fact, the settings is the only part of PS that can be done completely without all others, so why does it glue itself to the engine more than any other part? I am obviously missing a major chunk here.

This thread's arguments have definitely been a subject of debate among devs and no poster in this thread has added even an iota to what the team will eventually do to resolve issues regarding the death realm.

So I take it "it is not yet the time for a proper solution to be revealed"? Sorry, but I think I'll just stick with "death is mostly permanent". I can live with "we don't have reached a consensus yet", and even with "we don't have any better idea ATM", but certainly not with "We know it all but we don't tell you, na-ha-ha!". IOW, I'm not willing to put up with preliminary settings that badly substitute an already designed but for literally untold reasons unreleased proper solution.

As far as being told a book is disappointing (...) I disagree

Naturally that is a question of expectations. I was expecting more information about the DR, and especially details on what exactly the circumstances are under which someone can get back to life, without making it a commodity. The book has some nice ideas in it, but they pale compared to it's failing to address the central problem in a way to help RP (instead of PL).

or the settings seem to tape together the engine or that OOC issues must not be taken Icly, I completely disagree, and have the privilege of happily overriding that view with each stroke of my keyboard.

Which you obviously enjoy exercising. Surely you have some insightful arguments to support your opinion? Or is it the same as with someone maxing one's char, then proclaiming that same char Octarch and stick with a story that isn't even consistent with any possible PS timeline no matter what, while at the same time putting "humility" as major requirement when it comes to others?
It is most interesting to see how much you have raised yourself above "the players" in your own views since you were a player, one with a highly questionable character.

Is this a warning that we are going to see books detailing invisible walls, moving cities and wipes soon?

How many books do you think Londris Kolaim will write? I have some idea but I am under an NDA, I can however hint in this manner: he has an eternity, and you will have to wait and see.

I guess that these books will be consistent with his others, as you seem to have a thing for god-like "characters".

Happy gaming!

Ah, the irony...

@ CrazyYlian: even though this isn't really about the implementation, but about the way to RP it, your idea (even though similar things have been mentioned in the past) would certainly make for a feasible solution to temporarily remove the issues you mentioned, and which could also be kept in the long run, since death can always be expected to take some time to recover from, even with resurrections of any sort.

[bilbous]

Just a note here about those books and their reliability. In them the author himself claims to be the source of much of the mis-information about the death realm so any further claims ought to be taken with a grain of salt. It may be that there is a malicious entity that pervades the DR and selectively reveals what it wants people to think. It might even be that it is counting deaths for all characters and when the time is right (implementation catches up to setting) all those characters with x number of deaths are permanently dead those <x and >0 suffer horrendous effects varied according to how close to x and those who have never died live on untouched. It might be that day never comes, who knows!

[Under the moon]

* Under the moon looks at Seytra's post.

The 'Sheeples' died the second I read that book, actually, though the characters live on. I could not justify their being anymore.

* Under the moon shugs sadly.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Seytra, your ad hominems do nothing to aid your arguments.   

[Jeraphon]

It should be noted that if you wish to roleplay true death, just delete your account whenever you die. We won't mind, and in fact will applaud your roleplaying skills.

[Zan]

A book is just a book, written by one person. Some may be true experiences but most, if not all, books should be taken with a grain of salt at least. Authors always tend to make reality come over different than it is.

My characters do not believe most books to be the absolute truth, just an interesting view into the author's head.

[Velh Krome]

Seytra, reading your post kind of stuns me - I agree in each and every point you mentioned, and am happy you spoke my mind much more skillfully and eloquently than I would have been able to. As much as Xillix's post.. well, I was surprised.

As this thread is "pointless", grant me some last word on it:
As a community as this here is meant to be, correct me if I am wrong, I thought we could find some players' consense in how to handle ic-deaths, to compensate what still is undefined rp-wise. People talking to each other for finding an agreement in holes, that devs had left unfilled so far, due to understandable reasons.
As a roleplaying game, as this is meant to be, I thought players play together, not against one another. Hence I assumed theres no "wrong" in making suggestions. At no time I was intented to dictate anything, nor to offend devs omnipotence or override it. I asked people how they see it, and made a suggestion free to discuss.
What saddens me most though is, to see a thread growing that quick, which I take as a common interest in it and in fact a lack of understanding how to handle this certain topic, yet Xillix just says "pointless" without giving any explanation at all.
And Jeraphon, I am not roleplaying to please you devs, but to play and have fun with people sharing same interests.

[socia]

@ Vleh did you read what Seytra said? Direct attacks on Xillix and his char before has nothing to do with settings of PS and lead nowhere. It's same as I directly now attack your RP as it used to suck(yeah) you weren't even able to make difference with ingame char and player behind char...

so remember PEOPLE DO CHANGE AND SETTINGS DOES CHANGE but attacking each other leads nowhere. Useful critique will be accepted, flames will get ignored. Yes from my point of view settings has bugs, many bugs, quests have many bugs as well as whole PS. Devs do the job for us not for their selfs, remember it. If you have something to say say it but don't attack directly.

@Seytra trough reading this thread I got to feeling that you did know Xillix in past as well as he did know you, but community isn't interested in your personal troubles inbetween of you two and trying to pull it into critique on settings isn't good idea.

@Xillix settings needs lots of work and shouldn't forget that you are doing it for players to enjoy not to make them angry.

I think that good rper will always find his way to rp and people attacking PLers because they are pling realy do target wrong part of PS, problem isn't in PLing or RPing, it's in people... (think about it please)

[Velh Krome]

you weren't even able to make difference with ingame char and player behind char

You come to this conclusion after you poked twice before attacking in pvp? Interesting.

I admit, agreeing in "each and every point" with Seytra included that char-sentence, which is inasmuch a fault of mine as I dont know any of his former chars. For that point I apologize.
As you mention PLers now I doubt you have read this thread in its full content. The topic is something completely different. My original intention, I just repeat once more, was to know how other players handle ic-deaths, while remaining conform to the setting, and maybe finding a consense or an agreement in the end, as I presumed this to be a community with players playing together and not battling each other oocly as well. Background was that dead chars come back after 5mins running the DR, which makes roleplaying ones death, in my eyes, useless and a waste of time.
Disappointing is, that this approach is meant to be "pointless".

I wonder now what has "Plers vs RPers" to do with that, but I better dont ask.

[socia]

@ Velh I came to that from other players experience. Death and RP and PL has same actor hear > Death Realm, what made me feel to pull it here was Seytra's post.

Don't take it as attack I'm just pointing out that with personal attack we won't get anywhere, but if you with so... *points on some bricks* take one and throw

[Noriin]

*takes one of the bricks*
You haven't understood anything yet.

@ Vleh did you read what Seytra said? Direct attacks on Xillix and his char before has nothing to do with settings of PS and lead nowhere.

Did you read 95% of what Seytra said yourself? You have certainly failed to spot the positive part of this last, and the previous post.
I doubt nobody will come to post here and support flaming, be it against a dev or against a regular poster.
You couldn't know, and probably because of that, you shouldn't have been the one to step by to throw (yes) a brick.

It's same as I directly now attack your RP as it used to suck(yeah) you weren't even able to make difference with ingame char and player behind char...

You actually don't have a clue about anybody's RP, all I've seen you doing is taking camped NPCs and killing other players, either in DR or in the PvP room.

Useful critique will be accepted, flames will get ignored.

Whenever you want to have the privilege of telling others what to post: apply for dev or mod.

If you have something to say say it but don't attack directly.

Let me answer the quote with a quote of yourself: It's same as I directly now attack your RP as it used to suck(yeah) you weren't even able to make difference with ingame char and player behind char...
Your words are meaningless.

problem isn't in PLing or RPing, it's in people... (think about it please)

Ever thought about it yourself? You should do.
*drops the brick softly on the grass*

It should be noted that if you wish to roleplay true death, just delete your account whenever you die. We won't mind, and in fact will applaud your roleplaying skills.

Now this was pretty much what I would NOT expect from somebody who makes a game for fun towards the people who plays/tests it for fun.
As many times other devs have stated, I would suppose you are busy people. Considering you took the time to come here and post this line (yes, such brainstorming had to require some time), one would think you'd use it to tell players something useful. Thanks, that was huge help.

And however, a death would the most mean deleting one character, not four.