your thinking way to big way way to big. im talking minute details
What minute details would make a difference? NPCs talking, or moving. Objects appearing is already a tricky one, as that'll include usable items that obviously cannot be given out to players, or it'd need items that don't exist.
and create an avatar or temp ban? thats as creative as you can get lol no offense but im talking be creative and original about it. not follow lines everyone else would.
Let's see, what would you expect? The statue moving, as has been proposed? What difference would that have made compared to Laanx saying something? None, it'd have met the exact same reaction.
The only suitable way to prove that you can do harm is is to do some harm. And in case of a god, there's only a limited number of things you can do, especially if you're Laanx. In a world where there's powerful magic as in Yliakum, a god will
still need to do things that unarguably can't be done by people. Bring permadeath with a single word is one of these few things. Sending an avatar can already be questioned as some mind control spell.
The way I see it is that nothing short of such a drastic action could have been done. Laanx has killed for less, why should he discuss, or tiptoe around at all?
What was the situation:
There were highly vocal people right in front of a statue of Laanx, one that actually, all by itself radiates divine presence (rightclick).
Not only this, but right accross the plaza, there's the
main temple of Laanx. Not just any temple, it's
the temple. The temple that holds the holiest of holies, the book of names, the only material thing that Laanx ever gave to the people (except for life to the Lemurs).
Laanx is an inflexible, chaotic god, driven by revenge, if not hate. He has killed numerous people for not accepting him as god, and now he shouldn't smite some people who commit outright blasphemy right under his nose?
I'm not talking about an OOC ban. I'm talking about trying to balance "smiting" and people losing their char forever. As has been stated, making my point, merely killing, nor teleporting away had that effect, even though it quite obviously was intended as OOC-ly nondestructive IC smiting. Therefore, it's proven that this subtlety doesn't work.
I think that coming back from the DR was highly OOC in this respect, as you're supposed to be smitten, not just killed.
and as far as everyone getting mad their rp didnt get help. i cant stress enough in my list about randomness. their rp didnt get help.. thats fine maybe the next one or the next one. of course people are goign to complain. whats an mmo without complaints.
If this were done, then there'd be lots and lots of "RP"s wanting help, and even if only the few that actually deserved it got it, there'd still be a thread per hour. This could be handled by mods deleting them, but I am still not convinced that there is sufficient good RP going on to justify this additional trouble.
oh and help should only be when its tied into PS and doesnt effect the world.
And someone challenging Laanx isn't changing the world? It would not appear in history books, and the outcome would not alter the view of Laanx by the public? Seriously, that was the exact intention of at least the character. So by your own proposal, this RP shouldn't have gotten any help.
It seems that people are way too careless in what they consider "not changing the world".
However isn't the fact that they are a gm something that is OOC and should not be mentioned by a role player? If staying IC we should regard a gm as just another character, no one special unless playing the role of someone special. This means that if a gm helps in an rp we shouldn't complain about it because it would ICly be treated as if they were just another person.
Of course we should, but who is actually able to? Case in point is the number of people flocking to GM events simply because it's a GM event, as has already been stated. Therefore I'd like to state that only few players are
fully able to ignore the label. Several will try, but succeed only to varying degrees.
Be that as it may, I was trying to say that it's elevating the
player who created the event, not the GM. IOW, if a GM were to augment an RP by any player, that would be seen as an official endorsement of not only that specific event, but of everything that the character is supposed to be, does, has done and will do. IOW, if the character were to claim they'd be able to steal the book of names, then a GM going along with that would support that, saying "yes, this character can do that". Whether or not that was the intention, or if the GM even knew anything about that character (hardly possible given the vast number of chars), this is how it will be percieved (and subsequently advertised).
It would be rather annoying if people suddenly started rping to steal the book of names from the temple everyday yet its unrealistic to think that its immpossible. So lets say there were some important scrolls in the temple. Would it truely be so unrealsitic for there to be a master theif who stole them? Not at all. However its the response from the players who all suddenly want to be master thiefs that should worry you.
My thoughts exactly. It of course is not impossible. However, it is impossible for any player character. Why? Because either everyone would try to, and have the exact same right of doing that, or there'd be a "first come, first serve" policy set, creating a race of players to do the most outrageous things before anyone else does. This obviously isn't realistic, nor can be regarded as RP.
In this respect, what worries me is not that if such a thing were to happen that everyone would try to get away with the same thing. I know how sad humanity is. No, what worries me is that someone is actually trying to be the first even without such a precedent. Because that is just exactly the same: how do you justify that it is
your character that, out of all, can do it? How do you earn the right to this? The answer is that you cannot. Not in an MMORPG. It is possible in tabletop RPGs, because there the number of characters is few and they are, by definition, heros. Not so in an MMORPG. Therefore, the only way to handle this is to refrain from doing anything like this until the game mechanics actually allow your character to do it. Many things will therefore never happen, but this is the only way to actually make it fair to everyone. Additionally, things like that would also alter the world, as they'd get recorded in history books and stay alive in the populations memory for decades.
Players need to learn that not everyone can suddenly do something just because on person did it. Its the same when something new is implemented. Suddenly everyone thinks just because its possible they can do it.
They're different. When something becomes implemented, then that
does mean "everyone can do that now". However, with something that's not supportable by the implementation, but at the same time is highly unusual and in fact something memorable and therefore settings-altering, then this does mean that it must not be done in the first place.
When people start learning to limit themselves then I wouldn't see anything wrong with an rp in which someone steals from the Laanx temple, especially if they could do it within the game mechanics. Till people learn to limit themselves that would just turn into a messy rp.
History proves, over and over again, that people will do whatever they think they can get away with, that people will never learn anything, and that the only thing one can hope for is for them to fear consequences, or to reach a consensus among a small group. One person is able to learn, but humanity itself is incapable of learning.
This therefore only leaves the part which is about the game mechanics allowing for it, and this I agree to.
Why is it so unrealstic for players to try and face gods? Yes we wouldn't stand a chance and so are rp must reflect that helplessness. If a god were just to speak to you (as what happened in the rp) then what stops the person who yells against the god from yelling to their face (even though we couldn't see it...)? If the god did smite us then as players we would know that being smited by Laanx isn't something you can just get up from without a care and rp accordingly. However we were not struck down or anything of the sort, we were teleported away and thats what caused us to come back. Sometimes someone who is arrogant enough wouldn't back down because of fear 
The question really is: is it really believable that there's so many people that are sufficiently arrogant?
Next, if Laanx actually were to talk to them, would really all of them still be not only still arrogant, but also not the least bit intimidated?
Next, seeing that people were lowered into the floor already, and that people did get teleported, and "just killed", would one, realistically,
still not tone it down at least several notches?
Now take into consideration that FAICT the killing and teleporting away was nothing else than a simulation of smiting, while trying to keep yet another complaint thread from popping up (and failing)?
Seriously, the way it seems to me is that the being killed should have been a char deletion. Only the way that an MMORPG works likely prevented it from being just that, and IMO the players acted OOC-ly in that they took it as what the game mechanics did, instead of what actually and realistically would have happened. IOW, the GM was kind enough to actually interact, yet tone it down to a level that would not make people lose their chars despite all (realistic IC) odds, and was subsequently more or less ignored by the players involved. Even ignoring all unlikelyness, this was when it IMO really went down the drain. And it sadly emphasizes the point that simple interference is
not enough.
I said one of those comments above and I think it was completely IC. Just because the settings say that Laanx can kill you permantly must I believe it ICly? No. Its actually very OOC to believe that just because something is in the settings every player must believe it to be true. The fact is people will always have different beliefs. So what if I don't believe that Laanx can bring true death? ICly thats fine as long as OOCly I know that if he smites me I shouldn't be returning.
Not to offend you, but I really think that this is playing tricks with the setting. IMO yes, there are some things that a PC simply must believe, and Laanx being able to bring true death is one of them. The reasons are too obvious. Laanx did create life. Everyone knows that creating life from nothing is harder than destroying life. Proof: noone, not even the most powerful mage in Yliakum can actually create life, yet it is possible to destroy it by comparatively simple means (rare, special poison, sending into the crystal, even some magic may be able to). Granted, the interpretations of Levrus on familiars seem to suggest that it is indeed possible for mortals to create life; yet it's still not known how it was done, and if it wasn't simply a transmutation, which, even if still highly complex, certainly is easier than making life from scratch. Still, that life is nothing compared to Lemurs or Kran, with Jayose writing that it's "simple".
Be it as it may, Laanx is not stupid, and, even if he were indeed not capable of smiting in the literal sense, he could always teleport someone right in front of the crystal and -sizzle- smitten.
This then immediately lends credibility to the tales about Laanx actually smiting people, which is readily told by NPCs (and therefore is not forbidden knowledge), emphasizing that it is something to be accepted as fact IC-ly.
Also being fearless in the face of a god is not something to be thought of as OOC. I fear no god because of what I believe. My character believes that magic is the only true power and that the gods are nothing without it. Is that true? No and OOCly I know this. However because of his beliefs does this mean I suddenly back down when a god appears? No because I would be doing it OOCly. ICly I wouldn't care. If I suddenly run from fear of death realm it contradicts my character.
This disregards the fact that dieties in PS are dramatically different from dieties in RL. Contrary to RL dieties, PS dieties can be
proven to interact with the world. Not by themselves (though, if we're accepting the system messages as IC, which I think they are not, they do so often and personally), but by means of avatars. If nothing else, Talad's (unimplemented but described) temple is proof of intervention.
Even an unknowing person does feel divine presence in the statue, so it must be tangible. Talad reportedly intervened to restore peace at least once. Both sent avatars. Talad made the glyphs for people to use. I'm sure there's a lot more to come on that subject.
Therefore, atheism in PS is also something entirely different from atheism IRL. In PS, one can simply not get around acknowledging that, indeed, the gods do exist. The only question is whether or not you do worship them. Regardless of worshipping or not, they still undeniably are highly powerful beings. And given that people have quite a lot of fear for far less powerful people, one should indeed assume that any PC that is not truly insane will fear the dieties in PS.
Yes, one may still ignore them. One may slander them and announce that publicly. However, if one does so in their face, one must know that this is, at least in case of Laanx, the end of things. You may still go ahead, but if then you are killed, then that should really be treated as final.
This is something that I personally consider something not to be messed around with by a player, since it would either require drastic, settings-changing intervention by a GM, or be shallow and unbelievable, a dull reflection of what should have occured.
Also, even if
you now claim that it'd have been perfectly fine for the GM to delete your char (even though I am not convinced that this would have been what you'd have said if this would indeed have happened), it is quite obvious that the majority of players would run to the forums and create a lot of complaint threads about "GMs on a power trip", "Being punished for RPing" and such. People have made a hell of a lot of fuzz for something simple as a
name change, what do you think will happen if people's chars would start getting deleted?
ICly a charactor who never sees a god or sees devine intervention...
He would see it, or at least see proof of it existing. Some of it is even implemented, though most is yet to come.
why wouldnt he do what we were doing? lol are we supposed to blindly follow in a world that was supposedly for us yet we have to work hard everyday just for money and weapons... just to turn them on eachother when these gods have power to make our lifes perfect?
Quite obviously this is not the case. For one, it's the people that create all evil, no diety. The fact is that if people were not inherently greedy, they'd not need to put their weapons against each other, but that's the same for RL. The gods may have the power to make people's lives a breeze, and they choose not to. Naturally, that can be questioned, and this is precisely why there are atheists in PS. However, if you look at RL, where there's absolutley
no proof whatsoever that this or that god even so much as
exists, yet there are still people (and lots of them!) that do believe in them, and them even being a lot kinder than at least Laanx.
Fact is that most people don't think for themselves and believe what they're told. That is the majority, and it isn't limited to religion. Fact also is that in PS there's proof that the dieties exist, so this lends a lot of additional credibility to these things. Lastly, people always believe that they can get a favour or advantage over everyone else of some sort off the gods, RL or PS, so this makes for another reason to follow the tales, especially if they're not tales. It really is the same reason why people willingly serve even the most ruthless of leaders: they think that they benefit from it.
Lastly, life in Yliakum is significantly more easy than life IRL, at least if going by the game mechanics (which we're accepting here given they were used to justify the complaints about no repercussions, and the subsequent ease with which people were able to exit death). You don't even have to eat or drink. In fact, it's almost impossible to
not become filthy rich in almost no time in PS. Add to that that there's a tangible chance of actually getting a little favour by a diety and one can't necesarily complain.
Yes, there still is, as I said, reason to question the gods. However, there is absolutely no basis for assuming that they're powerless or stupid. Therefore, RPing an atheist is perfectly fine, it's even in the CC. However, RPing no consequences for challenging the gods more or less from their main temple is not.
are you really serious about your claims seytra?
Absolutely, yes. I am in fact adamant about them.
we are doing what should have been done along time ago. and unless you guys can come up with more creative and original ways to keep the fear of gods around.. besides a occasion spamming smite. what are we.. IC'ly lead to think? the exact thing we are starting. i think you are having trouble differing ooc and ic =)
Sorry, but I think
you are the ones who are unable to differentiate IC from OOC. You ignore all reason and settings, and simply "RP" the game mechanics as-is, even though it is obvious that they are barely existant. You effectively go on a power trip simply because you, OOC-ly, know that nothing will happen to you, because if it would, then there'd be whining without any end. IOW, you are not RPing, and therefore should be ignored, not aided in any way. If you were really interested in realistic RP, you'd have deleted your character when it was appropriate. What you are doing is bashing the GMs for being nice. If I were a GM, I'd delete your char at this very instant instead of replying here, simply because it would be realistic.
Call me uncreative, but unless you are capable of coming up with something that does not end up in significantly hurting the offender(s) and
still be worthy and reaslistic of a god like Laanx, I consider this the only adequate solution.
