The Gods Must be Crazy!

[bilbous]

It seems to me that if you were to fight thugs (mostly), rogues or mercenaries for a while you would have plenty mundane weapons to spare. There was such a glut of gold on the market that in any real economy its value would have plummeted. Would you rather they had left the mining of gold the same and reduced its price tenfold? That doesn't even consider that such a heavily mined lode might run out.

My advice is get over it, things change, things will continue to change. Who is to say that there is not some other field out there waiting to be discovered or being harvested by those in the know?

When the amount of players mining gold goes from 10% to 90% there is a problem that needs addressing. Perhaps it was not the most elegant method of balancing but gold was mostly a useless commodity.

[Fethrin]

1.   “It seems to me that if you were to fight thugs (mostly), rogues or mercenaries for a while you would have plenty mundane weapons to spare.”

Are you seriously implying that there are sufficient ‘thugs’ of differing grades to satisfy the looting requirements of all players’ diversity of skill ranking?

      2. “There was such a glut of gold on the market that in any real economy its value would have plummeted. Would you rather they had left the mining of gold the same and reduced its price tenfold? That doesn't even consider that such a heavily mined lode might run out.”

Oh dear.
All countries that compete in the global financial markets carry repositories and reserves of all precious commodities. In particular gold, since it is an indexing commodity similar to the Dow Jones and LSE. The reason for this is to stabilise economies and to maintain an artificially high price.

Why tenfold? What does that relate to? Why is any drastic change required? What is the value of this point? 

Heavily mined? Run out? Are you suggesting that what happens in real life should equate to a simulation? If so you ought to recognise that gold is currently valued at $694 an ounce. 1 carat is 0.2 g. If you do your calculations you’ll soon see that 240 trias for a lump of gold doesn’t relate to a diamond selling for 40 or 60 trias.

3.   “My advice is get over it, things change, things will continue to change.”

Your armchair politics will change nothing. If you look back over the responses to the original post, you will see that a lot of good suggestions have evolved from what was an objective criticism open for debate. We are all fully aware that things change, and that is the reason for posting observations in the first place.

4.   “Who is to say that there is not some other field out there waiting to be discovered or being harvested by those in the know?”

Well, if that is what is happening, the poor developers will have to ensure that no one has been over that area before searching for commodities, and besides, why bother? It’s a waste of time for all gamers to go round searching for a means of income when all they want to do is get on with the game.

5. “When the amount of players mining gold goes from 10% to 90% there is a problem that needs addressing. Perhaps it was not the most elegant method of balancing but gold was mostly a useless commodity.”

Where on earth did you get these figures up from? And 10% and 90% of what exactly? And how can gold be a useless commodity when it provides the main means of income for the majority of players?

I think your proposed factually based debate lacks facts.

[Maju]

What he means is that you can't eat gold, drink gold, use gold for weapons or clothes (other than as minor decoration), etc. Gold itself is useless and is only used as means of exchange because its durability and rarity have made that convenient. But...

One problem is that, while in the real world the production of gold can be as low as 1/100 that of silver and mayeb 1/1,000,000 that of iron (just good guesses) in Yilakum you get about similar productions for any metal or crystal, even with the current rate reductions. Also most gold in RL does not vanish after being sold (or processed and sold) but it's actually accumulated in form of valuable jewels, bank deposits or whatever. Gold remains circulating all the time, or at least it did in the MA.

Another problem is that production economy does not actually exist in Yilakum, exception made of some weapons and the like. There are no farms providing grain or meat or wool, no breweries that process beer, no artisans that can make clothes or leather armors, no quarries fro where to extract rock for the buildings, no masons building homes and other structures, etc. What NPCs earn (if they earn anything) that doesn't return to the economy normally.

So basically mines provide the means of getting, not the basics of life, that are not needed (we don't need food or shelter) but basically education. This is not realistic but, as long as Yilakum is based in warrying and artisanship, and not in people needing to survive there will be no real economy - after all these spcializations can be considered perfectly as prescindible luxuries, not any basic need. As long as NPCs don't redistribute the wealth they accumulate, new wealth (even if unrealistic) must be produced at every step... this unrealistic wealth is basically generated by mining gold.

[bilbous]

@fethrin:

1. Thugs are among the least used mobs that drop weapons. It is true there are only 5 that I know about and they are localized in one particular area. They are fairly easy to fight.  If you fight the two unagressive ones for a couple of hours you will return with a pack full of broadswords and short swords one or two of which might be magical.

Some of the mercenaries in the arena are also fairly easy and with a little training in armor and weapon you can fight some of the rogues who also drop weapons.  A little later you can fight the gladiators. Now there are more types of humans that waylay you on the paths they are a little too strong for me but with enough potions I could probably make money off of them too.

2. The gold standard is dead and has been since the developed countries decided to let their currencies float. National treasuries, many of which are private companies, such as the Bank of Canada and the U.S. Federal Reserve, now cannot cover the sum of the moneys they have printed. They are like any other bank where as long as it works out on paper it is all good. THe world banking system currently in effect is a gigantic confidence scheme.

By the way my numbers came from my burro and should not be considered anything more than gross estimates.

3. Sure thing. My reply was not to the thread as a whole but a response to the previous post. I'm sorry, but the advent of gold smelting was at least as big a change in the revenue stream as the reduction in the production rate. If you recall some months ago how crowded was the minefield by Levrus' shop. Then it played out, more or less. I recall seeing 20-30 people piled up at a time. A few months before that there was maybe 5-10 people. I miss my slash 50 weapons but they are gone, so big deal. I just felt you were belaboring the points that had been made. It was meant to be a friendly "get over it" not derisive.

4. So you want to be spoon-fed mining locations? Cannot tectonic activity uncover new deposits? How hard is it to run around pressing a macro key and how else are you going to find new deposits? How did you find the gold mine in the first place? I found it by running around digging everywhere, the same way I found copper and zinc and pretty much everything else. Sometimes I had vague directions from other players or npc's, and yes I was shown some of the resources too.

5. 10% of players to 90% of players and I made them up, of course, to indicate a large shift. With the amount of gold that has been mined in the last six months you would think the streets were paved with it but it is all gone, Little has been made from it and yet it is just gone. Turned magically into circles, I guess. Them gnomes on the fourth level must be working overtime to keep up with the demand for specie.

I am sorry if this has gotten a little off track, it comes from the heart (such as it is), you know.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Um, it is alarmist if you look at the title and the follow that out with all the argumentation that there is no other way to make money etc. This is simply untrue. Also this is one of many threads queries and convos i have had with people concerning the matter. Ease up gold-diggers!

 I have read all of this and gleaned some good ideas, of course i thank the thoughtful people for their contributions.

Gold is still on the market and still lining pockets but i do encourage you to go out and look for other metals.

Some further balancing has already occurred.

I get really frustrated that my responses are often glossed over, or worse quoted back to me out of context.

[Roderyck Slywolfe]

Hey, Xillix, I was not alarmed in any way when I posted this topic, and I have already adjusted my game play. I am not and was never exlusively gold mining for tria. I thought the title humorous, since it is one of my favorite movies, and it would get attention. 

Anyway, there still is more to be done to balance and stimlulate the economy, and I have suggested a few. I'd LOVE to see goods and tria exchanging hands on a regular basis, if not just for the roleplay aspect of it. I will help in any way I can.

Thank you.

[Fethrin]

@Bilbous
Thugs, mercenaries, cutthroats, rogues, in fact all NPCs from which/whom loot can be gained are insufficient in number and diversity of combatant strengths to accommodate the financial needs of all players at any one time. If this became the major source of financial gain, players with high skills and fast macros would be looting them all while lesser skilled players were left with the options others didn’t want.

Gold is still used and quoted as an index, and all major commodities are reserved to maintain price and market interest.

“THe world banking system currently in effect is a gigantic confidence scheme.”
I couldn’t agree more, but we are getting away from the point.

“It was meant to be a friendly "get over it" not derisive.”
Yes, I believe that.

“So you want to be spoon-fed mining locations?”
You missed the point entirely.
I spent best part of a day with a new player who believed there might be other ‘undiscovered’ gold locations. So the two of us, having set up the macros went all over the hills searching, and of course found nothing. Tectonic activity would change the landscape, and we would spot that. The point I am making is that having covered that ground once and found no gold, we won’t keep going over and over it in the off chance that developers would make some ‘appear’ from nowhere.
You can only go so far when tinkering with the dynamics. Do it too much and it will become insurmountably frustrating.

@Xillix

‘alarmist noun someone who spreads unnecessary alarm. adj causing unnecessary alarm.’ Chambers.

I am unable to see any cause for alarm in the title or the content of the original post.
I think a very fair and reasonable concern is expressed, and expects the same format of response. It’s a concern expressed by many players during online play.
In fact it’s also a frustration expressed by players that needs resolving.

“…..all the argumentation that there is no other way to make money etc. This is simply untrue.”
Of course there are other ways to make money. But they are massively imbalanced.
You, I know are fully aware of that. I don’t need to point out the sale price of iron, coal, emeralds & diamonds to you. So you deemed gold to have been exploited. Possibly. Probably. But to just slash extraction without bringing up realistic comparative prices on other minerals & gems makes absolutely no sense.
Players need some dependability within the structure of a game, and by simply taking that from them is what will cause alarm.

Your words were not taken out of context at all.

@ Maju
“What he means is that you can't eat gold, drink gold, use gold for weapons or clothes”
Of course I realise that. But gold has a different use from other metals, which is explicitly different, and this gives it considerable usefulness within the environment.
And I think every player is aware of the remainder of your post.
**********
The point remains, and is so far unresolved, that where they may have been an imbalance of gold ore extraction & sale, there is now an even greater imbalance in the economy by simply reducing the supply by that much.

The original post makes a very valid point voicing the opinions of many players.
As yet, despite the number of replies to the post, and several good ideas, there are no solutions being offered.

[Kerol]

If this became the major source of financial gain, players with high skills and fast macros would be looting them all while lesser skilled players were left with the options others didn’t want.

Was in the past, until the gold rush.

Tectonic activity would change the landscape, and we would spot that.

There is no tectonic activity, really, but erosion could open a new location without drastic changes to the landscape.

Players need some dependability within the structure of a game, and by simply taking that from them is what will cause alarm.

Good point.

As yet, despite the number of replies to the post, and several good ideas, there are no solutions being offered.

The solutions will become visible when the devs realised them
Be assured that we will take your ideas and concerns into account, but usually actual development is undisclosed.

[bilbous]

Of  course I realize the concept of tectonic plates and such is beyond any inclusion in PS. I was using it improperly as shorthand for cave-ins, earthquakes, magical earth dwelling monsters and the unseen hand of Gods and other powerful beings such as might justify new lodes appearing. Whether any of these things are actually the cause is beside the point that such fields could appear where they formerly were not found. There is only so much territory and plenty of land textured to appear resource bearing.

As for the thugs, etc. well bilbous goes slumming once in a while but they do not offer enough practice for him to do so out of anything other than nostalgia. The new critter such as the cutthroats and whatever roaming the roadways are quite a bit more challenging so that at all levels except perhaps at the very highest there are worthy NPC opponents. You may need to share at times but that is acceptable to me. Most mature players with high level characters will go off and do something else if confronted with a character that is obviously more level suited to the opponent comes along. Many have other characters they can play as well.

[Coneitic]

wouldnt a new landscape devoloped by erosion take hundreds or thousands of years?

[Under the moon]

Courious. People talk a lot about it being realistic for gold and ore to run dry in a mine, and that you can always go hunt 'thugs' to make money.

Question. Where does the endless supply of 'thugs' (cutthroats, whatever) come from? Or, better yet, where does their supply of high end weapons come from?

*edit*

The "where to mine" answer is simple. Governments do not let the people mine whilly nilly where ever they want. They open new land to mining, they close old land to mining. Simple as that.

[Jeraphon]

Question. Where does the endless supply of 'thugs' (cutthroats, whatever) come from?

When a mommy and a daddy love each other VERY much...

[bilbous]

Or when a Kran gets an itch he can't scratch?

[Waylander]

“So you want to be spoon-fed mining locations?”
You missed the point entirely.
I spent best part of a day with a new player who believed there might be other ‘undiscovered’ gold locations. So the two of us, having set up the macros went all over the hills searching, and of course found nothing. Tectonic activity would change the landscape, and we would spot that. The point I am making is that having covered that ground once and found no gold, we won’t keep going over and over it in the off chance that developers would make some ‘appear’ from nowhere.
You can only go so far when tinkering with the dynamics. Do it too much and it will become insurmountably frustrating.

I understand what you are saying here and, to a degree, I understand.  But you must realize that all aspects of the game are in development, settings included.

@Xillix

‘alarmist noun someone who spreads unnecessary alarm. adj causing unnecessary alarm.’ Chambers.

I am unable to see any cause for alarm in the title or the content of the original post.
I think a very fair and reasonable concern is expressed, and expects the same format of response. It’s a concern expressed by many players during online play.
In fact it’s also a frustration expressed by players that needs resolving.

"The Gods Must be Crazy!" because there isn't enough gold.  That's raising unnecessary alarm

“…..all the argumentation that there is no other way to make money etc. This is simply untrue.”
Of course there are other ways to make money. But they are massively imbalanced.
You, I know are fully aware of that. I don’t need to point out the sale price of iron, coal, emeralds & diamonds to you. So you deemed gold to have been exploited. Possibly. Probably. But to just slash extraction without bringing up realistic comparative prices on other minerals & gems makes absolutely no sense.
Players need some dependability within the structure of a game, and by simply taking that from them is what will cause alarm.

If the team made sure that every development step was well prepared so that there were no balancing issues they'd be much further back in development.  There was too much gold in relation to the settings and so it has been lessened for now.  Once a few more changes have occurred the game's balance will become more stable again.

The simple solution is to adapt for now, new players can get what they need from fighting rats and such, and wait until the Dev team does add something to balance the game again.

[Under the moon]

Huh. Millions of mommies and daddies must love each other very much to create -that- many baddies. Creatures, I can see. The crystal creates a high rate of reproduction and extreme growth. But humanoids? Though... I guess they just come back from the dead too, don't they? But... then how can you loot them, and they return with a full supply of goodies...