The Great inconsistency hunt is on!

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Ok people, we are decided on trying to clear all inconsistencies from the game as much as is reasonable. Here our interest lies is eliminating all things which are not internally consistent in settings. Between Character creation process, main site, npc dialogs, books, and even quests.

Why come to you? Well so many eyes can be a big help to us and a group edit will catch more than an individual one.

So if you want to help out post instances of inconsistency and where they occur, in the coming weeks we will try to get rid of them.

Please be careful not to release spoilers and remember that books can have unreliable narrators.

Some changes will be forthcoming so it is a good time to think about a systemic sweep for errors.

[steuben]

and note... the he/she thing for laanx in the settings section of the main site is _not_ an inconsistancy. read it again.

[Under the moon]

* Under the moon sees his moment, and pounces.

This is going to take some time.

Since you listed Creation first. I’ll start there and the conflicts it has with other things.

Dermorians: Main site and Creation “The dermorians have an amber-colored or copper-colored skin and their hair ranges from brown to red, never black, rarely blond.”

In all art I have seen, and the in the models in the game, the Dermorians do not have amber or copper skin (they are decidedly very ‘white’) and the ladies -only- come in blond.

Diaboli (as talked about in a PM): Their oil black skin conflicts with both the art, and the properties of 3D graphics and art. Black can not be used as a *good* texture, so the race description must be changed.

Xacha: “Keepers of great knowledge, the Xacha use the magic arts and study natural phenomena as a tradition that is passed from generation to generation.”

“The Xacha are proud of their origins and traditions.”

Conflict- Races page on main site and player guide: “The origin of Yliakum's civilization is lost in the fog of the past.”

More conflict within that paragraph: “All the races arrive at Yliakum about in the same period, as we can learn from the records they have written.”

A past can not be lost if one race is dedicated to remembering it, and you can find records of that time.

More conflict in that same paragraph: …“ an earthquake that moved the surface of the earth creating new tunnels and caverns. After the initial fear these tunnels were explored by the inhabitants of the surface…”

It is a fact that all races but the Kran and Lemur came through Portals from other worlds. “All other races are said to arrive from magical portals connected to other worlds.” I have also been told that no one has ever been to the surface.

Lemurs: “The Lemurs have an appearance similar to Humans, but their origins can't be connected unless we look at a very distant past”

Laanx created humans as well?

Kran: “Silicon still supports oxygen linkages, so Kran breathe much more slowly than other races, enabling them to happily breathe underwater.” Rules- “They don't breathe so they can't drown.”

The next conflicts all go together.

StoneBreakers: “They have a strong pride that sometimes develops into feuds with other clans or other races. They tend to be suspicious and quarrelsome towards other races that are taller than they are.”

HammerWielders: “What grain they need for bread, they usually buy from the Enkidukai, with whom they have a good relationship.” Indicates they have a bad relationship with other races.

Diaboli: “Their familiarity with some of the semi-intelligent races that dwell in the Stone Labyrinths has raised suspicion with the other races.”

Klyros: “The Klyros believe strongly in the concept of brotherhood amongst the other members of their race.” But not for the other races…

All of those conflict with- “The land of Yliakum is a melting pot of races with different culture and origin, mixed and integrated by living together over the centuries. Racial suspicion and hostility are completely unknown…”

Not to mention that there is little evidence of this ‘melting pot’ in the game, as all talk I have heard is for each race to have their own city that reflects only their own styles. Where are the cities that are a mix of cultures and building styles?

Let’s look at Creation. It conflicts with… reality. First thing, parents jobs. Not the job in particular, but the detail of telling you -exactly where they worked, and what they did…as well as the thousands of other characters who choose that exact same thing. Drop the details, and just stick with “Father was a butcher.”

Parent’s jobs, part two: If one of your parents is ‘exceptional’, then the other can not be, or you would have to live in a hovel. This is why Creation is unplayable. It conflicts with reality that only one of your parents would be great at something, when generally people who are ‘great’ tend to hook up with others of similar talents. And if both were great, then they would not be living in the cheapest house you could find. Creation makes no sense at all to me. On second thought, let’s not look at Creation. It is a silly place anyways.

That is all I have for today… (not that I do not have much more, just too tired to go ingame and look it up  )

[Maju]

ot sure if it fits here but the small square gates at The Arena are architecturally impossible: over the two gate pillars there should be a single long horizontal stone... instead there are several small ones that are holding on the air. In reality such gates and the walls above them would just fall down. Fix that please.

[Caarrie]

Dermorians: .... their hair ranges from brown to red, never black, rarely blond.”

^^ has been corrected as of the .019 release

[Pizzasgood]

Has it been stated that all the portals appeared in the tunnels?  Perhaps those "surface dwellers" arrived via portal, just to the surface instead of the Labyrinth, and then traveled down after the quake.  Still a little inconsistent though.

[Quath]

ot sure if it fits here but the small square gates at The Arena are architecturally impossible: over the two gate pillars there should be a single long horizontal stone... instead there are several small ones that are holding on the air. In reality such gates and the walls above them would just fall down. Fix that please.

Ummm.  A wizard did it. 

[Maju]

ot sure if it fits here but the small square gates at The Arena are architecturally impossible: over the two gate pillars there should be a single long horizontal stone... instead there are several small ones that are holding on the air. In reality such gates and the walls above them would just fall down. Fix that please.

Ummm.  A wizard did it. 

Ehmmmm... I think wizards are busy in other less mundane issues, specially considering that there are several races in Yilakum that are great architects such as the Stonebreakers or the Xacha. Even in "magical" Stonehenghe... the pillars are united by a single slab on top. 

Anyhow, thanks for noticing it. I though it was going to get lost in the midst of other discussions. 

[Karyuu]

Much in the Arena was actually constructed with the help of magic, such as:

In the arena there are large statues, a couple have a floating sphere near outstretched hands.  Is the floating piece of the statue held up with magic (not asking if the statue is supposed to be a mage)?  If so, who cast the spell?

It is held up with magic. The spell was cast as a gift from the Council of Ways and many take credit for its sustained power.

[Maju]

C'mon! It's an obvious design error... don't try to hide it behind the curtain of magic. 

[Seytra]

Good initiative!

Diaboli (as talked about in a PM): Their oil black skin conflicts with both the art, and the properties of 3D graphics and art. Black can not be used as a *good* texture, so the race description must be changed.

NWN had the option for black skin colour (which was truly black), and while some features get obscured by that, it's realistic IMO. Not to mention that anything that's not a feature of the skin itself won't be affected, and in fact make for interesting effects of contrasts. I still don't think it's a good idea to let possible technical issues impact the settings.

I'd rather see a reevaluation / change of the name "Diaboli", since it betrays the RL origin while having no backing in the setting, in addition to creating a false image of that race (some people mistake them for some sort of demons).

About the earthquake thing: wasn't that already removed in 2005?

City sizes: it has been said that Hydlaa will not become significantly larger than it is now. However, in this case it won't be doing justice to it's purpoted importance and population. Same for Ojaveda.

Since the CC has been mentioned: the option for a "Crystal eclipse" doesn't work in a MMORPG, since obviously the crystal would have to become dark for extended amounts of time to accommodate all the characters, especially since this event can be selected without any regard to dates.

CC: "Ravens on house": Do ravens even exist in Yliakum?

The CC's months and corresponding "dieties" are problematic as well.

This isn't technically an incosistency, but it's something that should maybe be erases before it becomes a basis for other things: Jayoses book on familiars mentions "sack-like creatures". Is it really necessary to take things that far? Wouldn't this, if Jayoses interpretation holds true, mean that someone who was no diety did create life, while Laanx or Talad had to resort to using the crystal? Wouldn't it be better to leave this whole life creation business to dieties?

mainsite->history:
The cave below Yliakum has a problem as that Laanx "discovered it" (center of third epoch), yet since Laanx and Talad enlarged the cavern of Yliakum, after having traversed the planet this far, they should have known of it (especially if they'd have had to enlarge the stalactite itself).

Both Laanx and Talad could traverse the planet's crust down into Yliakum (center of first epoch), yet Laanx had to wander the stone labyrinths instead of just going through the walls (start of third epoch; emphasized by the Lemurs being able to follow Laanx). This can be explained by his mental derangedness, though.

I assume that Laanx and Talad were able to remain ignorant of the SL (end of first epoch) because they travelled close to the crystal and didn't research the tunnels during the enlargement of Yliakum and diverting of underground rivers, and likely mistook them for simple cracks in the walls, since the Yliaki did obviously readily discover them, as did Laanx to wander them (start of third epoch)?

The cave below Yliakum, as well as the stone labyrinths, have the problem that they couldn't support life, as they don't have any source of energy. Laanx gave to the Lemur in Kadaikos "powerful things" to light the cave (third-last paragraph in third epoch), yet the lake and the cave already held creatures before Laanx even arrived there. The energy could not have come from organic debris flowing out of Yliakum through the waterfall into the lake, because Yliakum also didn't exist, let alone be populated, for long enough for life to evolve. The stone labyrinths don't have any source of energy at all, unless there is life on the surface, which reaches the SL in sufficient quantity to sustain life there.

More inconsistency regarding the arrival of the races in Yliakum: as stated "they arrived around the same time", yet (end of third epoch) Laanx had time to wander the SL for "many generations of Lemur", and then rule Kadaikos for "a period" until remembering Voduls promise of luring other races into Yliakum which "were supposed to arrive in few decades", meaning that the time difference would be several centuries by now. If the time difference really is this large, then the date of 750 AY has trouble being "long", and the Octarch's decree book's date would be only slightly older than when the other races arrived, meaning that the octarchy would have had to have evolved already in the earliest days where only Lemur and Kran existed in Yliakum. Alternatively, the date "0 AY" would have to be more or less after the estabilshment of the Octarchy, thereby being significantly different from the first Lemur's existence.

Center of fourth epoch: Laanx sent an avatar to lure the Dermorians away from Yliakum. That obviously didn't succeed, but why and how should be explained as well. Also, where is that cave "full of water and game" they were supposed to be lured to?

Vodul allegedly revealed the glyphs to Laanx and Talad (fourth paragraph of third epoch). However, they didn't seem to need them, as they could just "draw magic from the crystal" and do some rituals copied from Vodul (third paragraph of second epoch) (problem: if Vodul uses these rituals, they are specific to the crystal, therefore Vodul would have to 1) create people on more than on occasion and 2) use the crystal for this).

Talad gave up any hope to be reconciled with the old friend and, now alone, turned his thoughts to the people left in the town they had created. He called it "Hydlaa", the name of the most powerful glyph, that Vodùl had revealed to Laanx

The error of "city" vs. "world" and "Yliakum" vs. "Hydlaa" is also still present in that section (near center of third epoch).
Also, why would Vodul know about these glyphs, or have spent time researching them, if this really is merely some remote planet with no significance to any of the implied "older" gods? If he did so in his property of being "god of future events" (thereby more or less tricking Laanx and Talad into doing what they ended up doing, by deliberately letting Laanx observe these rituals, in which case he would have designed them especially for this occasion), then this should be explicitely stated. He would still, as said above, have had to create people using them.

and that led Talad to ignore prudence to satisfy his pride. Waiting for the day when the other peoples would come, he forged magical power into many shapes, suitable to be used by the mortals to help them to survive underground: he created the Glyphs.

Now Talad created the glyphs, which were previously revealed to them by Vodul? Given that "glyphs" aren't material objects but instead magical properties placed onto some object for transporting purposes, Talad would merely have transferred some glyphs on objects instead of creating them? Otherwise, the appearance of glyphs mentioned in the Q&A would have to be a direct involvement of Talad himself.

Laanx and Talad "prayed" to Vodul. This word seems to be out of place, especially since neither Laanx nor Talad seem to actually worship him in the religious manner "pray" implies.

More inconsistencies WRT Lemur origin:
The race description (mainsite->races->Lemurs) states:

Everyone knows that the Lemurs were the first of all races to settle in Yliakum, and they are proud of it. The legends tell that their origins of the Lemurs are connected to a huge city located in the depths of earth, abandoned from a widespread disease. No one knows how to reach this city or if anyone still lives there. All lemurs share a sense of loss for their mysterious, distant homeland.

This means that they either came from some cave-city (consistent with the reasoning in their physical description), thereby not created by Laanx nor originating in Yliakum, or they were created in that cave, and not in Yliakum (inconsistent with creation story in both location and physical traits / reasoning).

Edit:
mainsite->settings overview, last paragraph (Waste):

Ducts that have been dug out in the rock are used to dispose of human waste. Larger rubbish and bodies are simply thrown into almost vertical and apparently endless wells. Nobody seems to care about where all of this junk finally ends up, since the stalactite theory is only devised by some Xacha scientists and has not been proven yet.

Are these two different types of tunnels, one set dug by Yliaki, the other set preexisting? Also, these "unknown" tunnels can only exist in the walls of the stalactite, since otherwise they must end near the bottom of each level, meaning that people living elsewhere can't easily use this method. Additionally, if these tunnels are still being dug, then the law against mining might just as well be repelled, especially given that "mines" in medieval times hardly compared to modern mines, both in depth and in extent.

[Manar]

The cave below Yliakum, as well as the stone labyrinths, have the problem that they couldn't support life, as they don't have any source of energy.
[...]
The stone labyrinths don't have any source of energy at all, unless there is life on the surface, which reaches the SL in sufficient quantity to sustain life there.

Life doesn't need all that much of an energy source; there's life in the deep-sea.  But Kadaikos should be getting pretty close to one source of energy; Yliakum itself is already going nearly as deep as the thickest part of the Earth's crust is thick.  And more than twice as deep as lesser parts.  I imagine that could at least result a simple thermal energy-source.

This does rather lead to another inconsistency, which may be just best ignored.  Yliakum is too big, vertically.  The water pressures on the seventh and eigth level of Yliakum are those of the deepest seas, which hinders travel a bit for anything but Krans.
Air-pressure is similar; if the sixth level has normal air-pressure, the first only has about 1% of that left.  All in all, I don't think that's fixable, and since I do like the geographical setting, it's probably best to forget about certain physics.

[Jeraphon]

Keep it coming, people. Some things we're already aware of and most certainly will be addressing, but other things are good points and we'll do our best to improve consistency in the rest of it.

Edit: Of course, after we do change things, you don't get to claim there's inconsistency between the changes and things that you RPed in the past. 

[Maju]

Good initiative!
I'd rather see a reevaluation / change of the name "Diaboli", since it betrays the RL origin while having no backing in the setting, in addition to creating a false image of that race (some people mistake them for some sort of demons).

In fact if you read the descriptions both in the game guide and related notes in the books you can find in Yilakum... the idea that the Diaboli are some sort of demon-like humanoids is not so far fetched (and probably was the original idea of Luca): their original world was very harsh and full of lava flows (a volcano is suggested... but the comparison with the Western concepts of Hell immediately come to mind naturally) up to the point that they are the only ones that consider Yilakum a paradise of sorts; they brought giant snakes as pets, like the ones that are frozen in Levrus' shop; they played with death early on, entering and leaving the DR just for fun (till they realized that damaged them somehow); they are promiscuous; they enjoy the good life in all forms; they are he most handsome/beautiful of all humanoids; they have horns and pointed tails...

Diaboli are demons of sorts, even if that's not explicitly stated because PS is a parallel reality and the manichean good-evil axis is treated with relativism.

[Seytra]

In fact if you read the descriptions both in the game guide and related notes in the books you can find in Yilakum... the idea that the Diaboli are some sort of demon-like humanoids is not so far fetched (and probably was the original idea of Luca): their original world was very harsh and full of lava flows (a volcano is suggested... but the comparison with the Western concepts of Hell immediately come to mind naturally) up to the point that they are the only ones that consider Yilakum a paradise of sorts; they brought giant snakes as pets, like the ones that are frozen in Levrus' shop; they played with death early on, entering and leaving the DR just for fun (till they realized that damaged them somehow); they are promiscuous; they enjoy the good life in all forms; they are he most handsome/beautiful of all humanoids; they have horns and pointed tails...

Diaboli are demons of sorts, even if that's not explicitly stated

These are indeed similarities that betray the OOC concept that they were influenced by, but there's still a major difference between "demon-like humaniods" (which are simply people with an appearance similar to a subsection of the RL "demonic" concept), and "demons of sorts", which means true demons. It is obvious that the Diaboli concept is inspired by a particular type of "demon" (which is by no means the only possible type). However, "demons" are still significantly different from "people" (like having supernatural abilities that are not accounted for by magic (otherwise everyone else would be demons as well) or to come from some other place individually and (have to) return there often, instead of living in and being bound to a place just like anyone else). Additionally, I have trouble imagining that a true demon would prefer Yliakum over hell. They may be inclined to turn it into hell, but that simply means they do not like it as-is. As for "playing with death" (being decidedly neutral on the DR in general), this is just as possible for anyone as for them, emphasized by the remainder of that paragraph in the book which, in fact, only cites this as an example for just this general possibility. Also, the same arguments can be applied to declare that Kran are in fact rock golems, except that their name isn't "Golemi". In fact, they'd be even closer to the "original" because they were, in fact, artificially created, even though this creation is perfectly in line with any other creation story for races (and therefore "being artificially created" only refers to non-divine creators; otherwise creationists would have to accept that RL humans are golems as well).

Also, the particular concept of "demon" that the Diaboli are OOC-ly influenced by does not exist in Yliakum, therefore declaring them "demons" would drag into PS the RL hell, which lives in conjunction with RL heaven, which again drags in Christianity and subsequently the religions which spawned Christianity, etc., which are changes so major that they would also have had to be part of the original concept, and as such at least be mentioned somewhere on the mainsite. That they aren't (which has been explicitely stated by PS staff), means that the Diaboli simply are not demons, and really just a sort of OOC lookalike to an RL (not PS) concept.

IOW, your argument is precisely why "Diaboli" is not a good choice of a name: "similar-to" does not mean "is-a".

because PS is a parallel reality and the manichean good-evil axis is treated with relativism.

PS is not intended to be a "parallel reality" to anything, at least not AFAIK. It is supposed to be an all-encompassing, stand-alone universe just like the RL universe (and therefore may have intrinsic parallel universes, but that's still different from bein a supposed RL parallel universe, as this would have to actually exist based on "our" reality; being a fictional creation doesn't suffice.).

Be it as it may, I agree that the Diaboli are in some parts unnecessarily similar to the "demon" comcept. In fact, possibly too close for the good of the settings: there is no explanation for why Diaboli would be excessively vulnerable to blessed things just because they're blessed (as opposed to ADD-style "special damage vs. <race>" items). This should also be considered as a possibly inconsistency.

Similarly, the idea of an entire race that is "malicious" (regardless of the actual definition of that word) is a bit off IMO. These are exactly the reasons why I have stated in other threads that the concept of the Diaboli race doesn't sit well with me, BTW, but I didn't put it here because it's not necessarily an inconsistency; it's more a conscient decision that possibly should be reevaluated.