Author Topic: Religion.  (Read 12162 times)

Draklar

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Re: Religion.
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2007, 08:16:10 pm »
i hope its not from settings. nothing like using a hebrew term for the world of Yyliakum.. oh how do we tell the difference now?
Oh my, you're right! That's outrageous!

Quick, what other cultural heritage should we remove from the settings? Italic? Greek? Germanic? Maybe we should remove all setting material, as (Laanx protect us!) it just may turn out that the language we all use here borrowed countless terms from all sorts of world cultures!
AKA Skald

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Re: Religion.
« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2007, 08:26:08 pm »
Wait...

Are you saying that over time the English language has evolved and adopted new words, some of which are from different cultures, and given them definitions of their own...

I don't know if I can accept that new words are added to the language...

I'll google it just to make sure.

:P
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<Jeraphon>you so khrazy

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Draklar

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Re: Religion.
« Reply #47 on: August 24, 2007, 08:33:05 pm »
Are you saying that over time the English language has evolved and adopted new words, some of which are from different cultures, and given them definitions of their own...
It's crazy, I know! :o

Edit: In reference to actually intelligent posts:

I don't really see where the settings portrays Klyros as clear agnostics/atheists. The race is obviously traditionalistic. They stand by such values as honour or brotherhood. All the same with culture like that they would probably much rather die than be forced to do anything against their will. I think that's why they refused to follow Laanx. Atheism isn't a good explanation when the godly powers are proven with many Klyros being murdered and tortured.

As to Talad's worship being the main one, I'm not sure. The faith is filled with harmony, passive. It takes what comes and uses it to the best effect. Laanx priests on the other hand tend to be zealots. They should show much more will to fight for new followers and even take shady (the masked god) measures to achieve their goals.

It's also a question how Diaboli can be atheists if they avoid temples at all costs and have holy items damage them greatly. It would appear they are of supernatural origin themselves. Would demonic be too convenient?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 09:06:20 pm by Draklar »
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Re: Religion.
« Reply #48 on: August 24, 2007, 09:06:34 pm »
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It seemed their pride did not allow them to bend to any god.

True, I wouldn't called them atheistic, more they don't worship any god, though I'm sure they believe they exist.

Talad worship would have been the many ages ago in Yliakum history, as for now, I'd imagine that Laanx would have slowly taken over since the temples were created.  I'd give them about equal portions but with Talad having a bit more.

Of course, this is all for the settings devs to decide.
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Nikodemus

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Re: Religion.
« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2007, 10:41:38 pm »
thats the whole difference some people can't see at all.
Unlike our real world, there everyone knows the gods exist, but not everybody worships them. I have no idea why some people there argue their characters don't believe.
It's like i said: North America doesn't exist, coz i never been there. I never saw it and all the people, media are liers^^



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Maju

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Re: Religion.
« Reply #50 on: August 25, 2007, 01:57:30 am »
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Hearing this, Laanx went to these men personally; he didn't want to run the risk of loosing people that could be valuable. He found a few hundred of these people. They were desperate, almost without food, and resigned to ending the glorious history of their race in a moist alley. Laanx revealed himself of them and showed them all his power. The Xacha followed him without exception and he became their god.

Xacha's would be Laanx.  As would Lemurs.

That's for the history... but then there is the issue of the windowless tower that somebody posted had gathered in-game (from NPCs) that was built by the Xacha and is apparently related to an obscure god of them and they and their god seem to have excellent relations with the Octarchy. Their power is such that their tower is quite higher than that of Laanx' temple, what the followers of Laanx hate.

So it seems that the Xacha have their own god or gods (besides Laanx) and that the windowless tower is directly related to that discrete faith.

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It has been 750 years since Yliakum was settled, most of the old religions would have died out by now, I imagine.

You imagine... but you may be wrong. There's literature over there that says the opposite (check in DR library for instance).

In any case, it allows for quite a bit of creativity by players, who may choose to follow this or that belief, not just the main offcial ones... but also any dwarven, elfic or human pre-migration belief. It wouldn't be against the settings if someone worshipped Baal, Artemis or Shiva (human gods) or maybe an entity taken, say, from "The Lord of the Rings" (as we don't know much of where did humans, elfs and dwarves came from).

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In the City of the Azure Sun, the people increased their population and their knowledge under Talad's silent guidance. Many of them - except the Diaboli - slowly gave up the faith in their previous gods to worship the god of the glyphs.

"Many of them", right. I already said that most should be Taladists. But many others would be other things: Laanx, ethnic beliefs, even a few Black Flame.

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Black Flame should be near inexistant in Yliakum from what I see.

Yes as such... but the mysteries associated with Darkness exist (they are very real in DR: Black Crsytal, the "presence"...) and there's a lot to create in relation with it. Of course there should probably esotheric (secret, semi-secret) sects... but even Laanx religion is that way, as only priests seem able to read the Book of Names (and the settings are not explicit about that either).

The settings may be unclear but all I could find about the Dark Way of magic is that it draws it power from the Black Crystal (instead than The Crystal). While the relation between the BC and the BF are aboslutely obscure... one can't but think they are asociated as they seem to share the same Dark nature. It's an open matter but able to be roleplayed in a creative manner as one fits best. It gives occasion for many interesting theological discussions IC. The "real answer", the "truth" will always remain somewhat hidden, because that's how religions are, right?

...

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I don't really see where the settings portrays Klyros as clear agnostics/atheists. The race is obviously traditionalistic. They stand by such values as honour or brotherhood. All the same with culture like that they would probably much rather die than be forced to do anything against their will. I think that's why they refused to follow Laanx. Atheism isn't a good explanation when the godly powers are proven with many Klyros being murdered and tortured.

Sure. They are (or used to be) probably "ethnic" in their beliefs.

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As to Talad's worship being the main one, I'm not sure. The faith is filled with harmony, passive. It takes what comes and uses it to the best effect. Laanx priests on the other hand tend to be zealots. They should show much more will to fight for new followers and even take shady (the masked god) measures to achieve their goals.

Read above. As per the settings many (not all) of the different races became followers of Talad. Laanx created the Lemurs... but Yilakum is Talad's creation, so Yilakum people will likely tend to follow or at least respect Talad strongly (except Lemurs and Xacha maybe).

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It's also a question how Diaboli can be atheists if they avoid temples at all costs and have holy items damage them greatly. It would appear they are of supernatural origin themselves. Would demonic be too convenient?

As per the settings they are suggested to be somwehat demonic in nature... not explicitly with those words but all the settings re. Diaboli make them look like demon-like humanoids. Using the term "demon" in a Christian sense though would be getting out of the settings though... but it's clear that the inspiration for such race comes primarily from that source.

They are atheist not in the sense of disbelief... but rather of disinterest/opposition towards the gods and what they represent. It seems to be against their nature: to proud and unholy.

...

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Unlike our real world, there everyone knows the gods exist, but not everybody worships them. I have no idea why some people there argue their characters don't believe.

Well, after 750 years with the gods only manifesting indirectly, one may be skeptic regarding *these gods* or even the existence of any god (or relevant god). One can believe that magic (only visible manifestation) is just natural and has potentially a "scientific" explanation. Even in the European Middle Ages there were some atheists (those who could afford challenging the authority of the church as that Holy Roman Emperor known as "Stupor Mundi", who even led a crusade in the name of a god he didn't belief in). If the context is more loosely pre-modern than just specifically "medieval" (as I think it should be interpreted), we have many atheists/agnostics in Ancient Greece an a total pragmatic ecclecticism in Ancient and Medieval China, and many polytheisms in many different parts of the World. 

I think that people should avoid taking the rather strict monotheistic cliché of Medieval Europe (that anyhow allowed for many heressies and polytheistic pervivences, in which often socio-political unrest manifested) and be more open minded. After all, Yilakum religious relaity is clearly polytheistic and ecclectic, not the mono-doctrinarian reality of Medieval Europe or Islam. Think more in Ancient Egypt, China, classical Greece, India...

And, of course, it's different from all them anyhow.


Draklar

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Re: Religion.
« Reply #51 on: August 25, 2007, 10:50:27 am »
Read above. As per the settings many (not all) of the different races became followers of Talad. Laanx created the Lemurs... but Yilakum is Talad's creation, so Yilakum people will likely tend to follow or at least respect Talad strongly (except Lemurs and Xacha maybe).
"When the Xacha began to build the temple to Laanx, Talad felt control of his people's hearts slipping away. Many of his people, curious and charmed by Galeran's power, began to workship Laanx and to forget what Talad had made for them."

Also, you can hardly compare the state of Yliakum's religions to real life polytheistic ones. The churches are in a strong rivalisation. There's no, uhm, united "pantheon" ;)

Your arguments are conflicting by the way. You're assuming after all these years belief in gods could wane away, but all the same you state people would follow Talad for what he did for them in the times of yore. That is despite that Talad doesn't interfere with the Yliakum, while the Church of Laanx certainly fights for the followers.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2007, 11:15:39 am by Draklar »
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Maju

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Re: Religion.
« Reply #52 on: August 25, 2007, 07:41:59 pm »
Read above. As per the settings many (not all) of the different races became followers of Talad. Laanx created the Lemurs... but Yilakum is Talad's creation, so Yilakum people will likely tend to follow or at least respect Talad strongly (except Lemurs and Xacha maybe).
"When the Xacha began to build the temple to Laanx, Talad felt control of his people's hearts slipping away. Many of his people, curious and charmed by Galeran's power, began to workship Laanx and to forget what Talad had made for them."

Also, you can hardly compare the state of Yliakum's religions to real life polytheistic ones. The churches are in a strong rivalisation. There's no, uhm, united "pantheon" ;)

Your arguments are conflicting by the way. You're assuming after all these years belief in gods could wane away, but all the same you state people would follow Talad for what he did for them in the times of yore. That is despite that Talad doesn't interfere with the Yliakum, while the Church of Laanx certainly fights for the followers.

Well, you may be right about Laanxism being stronger than I thought but, though there's rivalry between Laanx and Talad, they form part of the same mythology anyhow, obe could even say that they are the same religion in a way: two ramifications of the same mythological idea (compare with Jupiter and Saturn or Vishnu and Shiva or whatever).

The settings and in-game literature are clear anyhow that the ethnic gods exist, though guess you could say the occupy a less prominent position (partial exceptions: the mysterious Xacha god of the Tower and the even more mysterious presence of DR).

The books you can read in DR are also quite clear that there are diferent opinions as to what causes ressurrection: some claim it miracle of their gods, other think of natural causes, etc. There's no clear explanation about the origin of the Black Crystal, which is most important for Dark Way adepts.

Also, generally speaking, it's clear that Laanx and Talad are gods of a polytheistic set. There's at least another more powerful god mentioned (Vodul) that is not worshipped directly by Yilakumites, and one would perfectly understand that there's a large (maybe infinite) array of other gods, though they had no direct incidence in the reation of Yilakum (they belong to other worlds and realities... though some have gained presence in our hollowed stalactite by means of importation or other unclear means).

Draklar

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Re: Religion.
« Reply #53 on: August 25, 2007, 11:00:58 pm »
What I meant is that in polytheistic religions people pray to various gods depending on what they want. There's no such thing when it comes to Laanx and Talad. Either you worship one, or the other. If it wasn't for the fact these past events really did happen, the two faiths wouldn't be connected at all. I mean, why should they if you can kick out a god and nothing is going to change? In polytheistic religions that's different as each god represents something that cannot be just taken out.

By the way, I think Xacha are the only race that may have atheism really justified (due to their scientific inclinations). Ironically, most have a deep faith in Laanx. I think this should be saying something.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2007, 11:04:06 pm by Draklar »
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Maju

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Re: Religion.
« Reply #54 on: August 26, 2007, 01:24:02 am »
What I meant is that in polytheistic religions people pray to various gods depending on what they want. There's no such thing when it comes to Laanx and Talad. Either you worship one, or the other. If it wasn't for the fact these past events really did happen, the two faiths wouldn't be connected at all. I mean, why should they if you can kick out a god and nothing is going to change? In polytheistic religions that's different as each god represents something that cannot be just taken out.

By the way, I think Xacha are the only race that may have atheism really justified (due to their scientific inclinations). Ironically, most have a deep faith in Laanx. I think this should be saying something.

Why would not some worship now Talad and then Laanx? Talad, I suspect would not have any problem with that... Laanx might be more envious. But people is practical and if there are several gods and they are not mutually exclussive (as happens in monotheistic faiths), many will surely respect both, even if they feel more attracted to one or the other.

You think probably in Greco-Roman polytheism, where most gods were believed to form part of a divine court and often even lineage. In other faiths the realtions beween different gods were/are not so straight and they may not represent different aspects but different forms of religion unified by a sense of common roots. The relation of Shiva and Vishnu is probably of that type: there are Shaivites, there are Vishnavas, and there are other trends (left hand path, Brahmanists - what's their Hindu name?) and other related or unrelated religions (Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Zoroastrism, Islam, Christianism, etc.), besides the many secondary (or not so secondary) gods of Hinduism. Some worship all, some worship none, some worship only one as "the true god", etc. Yet that normally doesn't cause major social clashes because what's probably most essential of polytheistic societies is (often) their eclecticism and tolerance.

As per the Xacha maybe their god is actually one of rationalism and science, who knows?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2007, 01:32:40 am by Maju »

zanzibar

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Re: Religion.
« Reply #55 on: August 27, 2007, 12:59:59 am »
Literate characters should be more likely to be religious because they'll be more familiar with the recorded history of the gods and their interactions with mortals.  If you grew up on a farm and only ever heard tales of Laanx and Talad, you'll have less reason to believe in them.
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Draklar

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Re: Religion.
« Reply #56 on: August 27, 2007, 11:24:57 am »
Yes zanzi. Nothing like the power of a cold book. Beliefs and traditions passed on throughout generations in close communities are totally no match for some words written by someone you don't even know. Hey, maybe if I pick up some books by Rowling, I'll start worshipping Harry Potter?

No, seriously. What are you talking about? The most faithful approach to religion can be found in the rural areas. The least faithful in bigger cities, especially among the educated. Is one (dubious) argument going to change that? There's a sea of arguments that speak otherwise out there.
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Re: Religion.
« Reply #57 on: August 27, 2007, 02:08:17 pm »
draklar ur last post is going off of real life information. the thing you keep reminding people not to do.

i back zanzabar's last post. the more you read of it the more you might believe. tho, the more you believe the more you might be inclined to blame the gods for the state of the world it is now.

in a big city like hydlaa with a huge temple of laanx and the statue. more of a reason to believe.

in say.. oja its a small place that seems to be miles away from hydlaa. no temple, no statues. just merchants and tents. if i was a parent and didnt want my child to know about these gods because i didnt believe in them.. i would move to oja. and keep it quiet. tell the child the people who come to the city speaking of these charactors are just storytellers. no fact behind them. as would most.

i think people in this thread are getting mixed up with the difference between believing and worshiping.

in yliakum where would u go if u didnt want your children and your childrens children to believe or even know about the gods? would u go to hydlaa the big city, or to the more rural oja?


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Also, you can hardly compare the state of Yliakum's religions to real life polytheistic ones.

same goes for its people draklar.


also... if u pick up a book about laanx and talad in the library, wouldnt u find it in the fact/historical section of the library?
where would harry potter be located in the library?

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Draklar

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Re: Religion.
« Reply #58 on: August 27, 2007, 02:55:13 pm »
I'm amazed by your skill in missing other users' points.

Also, you're confusing me and Jeraphon.
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zanzibar

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Re: Religion.
« Reply #59 on: August 27, 2007, 05:03:56 pm »
Yes zanzi. Nothing like the power of a cold book. Beliefs and traditions passed on throughout generations in close communities are totally no match for some words written by someone you don't even know. Hey, maybe if I pick up some books by Rowling, I'll start worshipping Harry Potter?

No, seriously. What are you talking about? The most faithful approach to religion can be found in the rural areas. The least faithful in bigger cities, especially among the educated. Is one (dubious) argument going to change that? There's a sea of arguments that speak otherwise out there.

We're talking about Planeshift, not real life.
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