My opinion on the economic issue

[Zan]

Yeah, yeah .. yet another thread whining about how screwed up our PS economy is. I don't want to whine though, I'd like to point out what, according to me, the underlying problem is for a lot of issues regarding balancing, player vs npc economy and earning money.

Problem:

A huge imbalance between the cost of goods (player economy) and the cost of daily life (NPC economy)

Lets look at things with an example:

price of one sword: 250 tria (goods)
price of maintaining that sword: 40 tria x 5 = 200 tria (daily life)
price of one level of swords training: 42 tria x 8 = 336 tria (daily life)

Now if we take into consideration that a sword is an investment, which only has to be bought once and that training and maintenance is, for most of us, a continuous expense ... everyone will agree that the huge majority of generated tria will go out to daily life expenses and very little to purchasing goods.

When we look at players vs NPC's, we are mainly able to produce or obtain goods which we can sell (I'll go into repairing a bit later since that's something we ruined for ourselves). There is already a limited demand (because of the above reason) for these but the offer is also too large (npc merchants + looting) for it to be profitable in a player economy. Us players can only be the giving party in the largest tria consumer of all, training.

So all in all, 99% of the income we make as players is flushed through to the NPC's, disappearing forever. This leaves a player run economy very little room to breathe.

Some suggestions I have to change this ..

For players:
- Stop repairing armor and weapons for free, you're killing our largest economical asset

For Devs
- Allow players to pitch in on the recieving end of skill training. Let them train skills to others up to the level which they posses. (or atleast reduce skill training costs substantially)
- Remove a substantial portion of the goods supply by making all lootable items not directly useable. Loot should only be in the form of resources or tria. Weapons or armor looted from NPC's can't be worn or wielded. It'll only serve as a source of resources for weapon or armor smiths.
- Raise the NPC price of (non-starter) goods so that players can actually offer them cheaper and still have something out of it.

[Kaerli]

Reply:

#1 sounds EXCELLENT! and would really help deal with the issue of the NPCs acting as massive Tria sinks...but would probably require a progression rewrite to implement.    On the other hand, suggestion #2 is a real problem because then many of the higher-level weapons (high / and/or stats buffing) would simply become extremely rare/high-priced, but there is a solution: Enable players to craft non-stock (enchanted) weapons.  Adding a true training-sword to the game (for practice/sparring) would also help.  #3 would also be good, as, in the case of a Frosty SS, the weapon's NPC selling price of 1440 tria is nowhere near what it is worth to PCs, which was about 5000 tria (that was before gold became rare though). 

[orino]

i just gave away a frost SS because i could get anyone to pay 3k for it let alone 5k... i just gave it to a newb to help out with his adventuring.. but i couldn't sell it if my life depended on it... SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE FAST..   i know your "working on it"  but it has failed.. it will be a failure till you implement something else to off set it...   it is turning into a 3rd world nation in there... no money but thing still cost a lot... NO ECONOMIC SENSE TO DO THIS... all you did is make having the ability to smelt gold a party trick.. no real money involved there.. and i refuse to pay 500 trias for some F-ing gold.. seriously the economy is in bad shape and if some thing isn't done soon you will see game play drop off i have already lost 5 friends who have had enough ... and they are not nobody players .... they are player that everyone knows and loves.... just figuring out they wasted their time learning to smelt gold and decided to leave... it is quite upsetting to know you wasted your time on something...

[Zan]

#2 is a real problem because then many of the higher-level weapons (high / and/or stats buffing) would simply become extremely rare/high-priced, but there is a solution: Enable players to craft non-stock (enchanted) weapons.  Adding a true training-sword to the game (for practice/sparring) would also help.

I'm assuming that players will be able to craft all those weapons in the future.

[Under the moon]

Hmm. Well, I guess this belongs in here as well.

Drastically reduce the cost of training, and -perhaps- slow the rate of training, and much will be solved.

The economy is not based on a product right now. It is based on the need to aquire a service (training). The high cost of training is because of the high 'levels' one can get to now, and the exponential rate at which it increases. Players -have- to get HUGE amounts of money to train these high levels. Once they get there, though, they still have the ability to make that huge amount of money, but have nothing to spend it on. That floods the market *edit* making DEvs and players think they need to solve the problem by reducing income sources. *edit*

Crafted or looted swords costed a lot not because they are worth more, or because gold was so common, but because it takes an insane amount of money to get the training needed to make them.

Now that gold has been nerfed, you will see some effects that I am sure have not been considered. One is that people will no longer be willing to help new players out as much. Instead of keeping those lower end looted weapons to give to newbies, folks are going to start selling everything they have to pay for training. Not only that, folks are going to be spending more time out in the mines or camps trying to get the money to spend on training, leaving less time to interact with the enviroment and other players (AKA roleplaying). Organizers of RPs will also have less tria to spread around for furthering their plans (Yes, it -does- take money to run an RP or organization). I know many a good rolepaying guild that bases their funds on gold so are going to have to spend more time mining or camping as well. With less example of good RP going on... well, you can gather what will happen.

So, until there is a way to fund roleplayers without taking up all of their time 'mining', then you can not take away the easy money. I saw the very same drop in RP when Platinum was dropped from the game.

* Under the moon starts to ponder economics...

And agreed.

[Karyuu]

I'd rather not have things repeated across multiple threads on the same subject. Please choose one thread and stick to it from now on, so that it is easier to keep track of discussions about this.

[CrazyYlian]

"- Remove a substantial portion of the goods supply by making all lootable items not directly useable. Loot should only be in the form of resources or tria. Weapons or armor looted from NPC's can't be worn or wielded. It'll only serve as a source of resources for weapon or armor smiths."

NO please. 

1. From a personal perspective that would suck.  Its not solely about the economy, there's the issue of gameplay as well.  I'm a big fan of randomness in games.  That would remove about the only element of surprise in the game.  I actually enjoy looting weapons, not for the cash, but just because I never know what I'll get.  And only weapons provides that. Looting Tefus and Trepors is utterly predictable.

2. Why do you fight NPCs? To train combat or armor, or to loot.  Why do you loot?  To get better weapons, or more tria to train.  (And because that's all there is to do with an NPC after you've fought and killed them.)   Why do you need a better weapon or more training? To fight NPCs (yes, other players, but PvP is weak, so NPCs it is.)   So its a dull circle, with the only bright spot being the loot.  Take away the useful loot and why bother?

3. I don't think it would help in the end, for reason #2.  You won't stimulate the market for crafted weapons or goods if you remove the reason the market exists in the first place.  Without useful loot the only reason I'd be fighting is to train, but (a) training is more effective with a weaker weapon so why would I buy your mastercrafted one? and (b) why would I bother training at all if there was no other reason than more training?


I like the idea someone posted in another thread about having some kind of player marketplace to sell loot and crafted items.  That alone would put some balance back.  Right now, you either sell to NPCs (badly out of balance pricewise), auction (a crapshoot at best, dependent on time of day, # of player on, etc), or sell to your guild buds (limited market, arbitrary price structure).  A player market would even out all those drawbacks and create a supply/demand balance just like the real world. 

[Jurrel]

   Sorry Karyuu but i have to second UTM. All too true  . Once all the jobs are in and a player needs food, leather, chain, weapons, cut gems, capes belt, sacs ext and NPCs dont shell it out. I can see a great economy for all developing. Until then are we allowed to have just a little fun. I understand you want it realistic but if I wanted reality, I wouldnt be playing a fantasy game. I started playing just to have fun. I like to RP and help players. Out of all PS has to offer thats what I liked to do best. Now I mine. Not just gold everything. I havent RPed since this started not beacause I dont want to just because Im mining and looting all the time now. I used to see new players and greet them . I would give  them weapons and armor and a little starter cash and extend my help in the future. I used to change new miners gold for free not because I couln't use the tria but because I know how much they need it. I help guild mates out alot . One goes to school and has little time to play but tries real hard to keep up. I noticed how hard she was trying and decided to make it easier for her so she could spend less time in game and more time studying. I gave her 85k. Another player had a huge loss in his life I gave that player 85k, it was the least i could do. I undertand we had some excess but i used it well to help others in need. Unfortunatly I cannot continue to be the player i had become. I am now a mindless drone in the mines without a soul. I no longer have purpose and I am saddened when I see a new player and realize there is nothing i can do to help anymore. I want to play Planeshift not Goldshift.

[zanzibar]

I'd rather not have things repeated across multiple threads on the same subject. Please choose one thread and stick to it from now on, so that it is easier to keep track of discussions about this.

If it's a good enough response, why not repeat the response if the question itself is repeated?

[Karyuu]

I was referring to the entire thread. This topic is being discussed in multiple locations, so I would rather people find one and stick to it.

[Jurrel]

   Sorry Karyruu I just saw this one and responded and yes there are alot of threads on this . It is a passionate issue and we all care how it turns out. I will stick to this one:)

[Zan]

I knew I was taking a risk with opening a new thread but I found all the other threads to be about something related to the economy, which usually ended up in this exact discussion. My idea here was to make one centralized thread .. exactly to make things easier to follow. If you really disagree, feel free to close this and I'll spread my opinions out on all the other threads. No hard feelings

@CrazyYlian

I understand your problem with removing the loot, but don't you think we can keep the fun factor in looting and still make things somewhat more economically beneficial? Let's say instead of looting a platinum short sword, with the new system you loot a chipped platinum short sword blade. You then bring this blade to your favorite blacksmith, who will take another piece of looted platinum to fix the blade, attach a hilt and all that for a small fee to give you back a fully functional platinum short sword?

I don't want to make looting dull at all, I like the large randomness too but I don't like how everyone can get their hands on good weapons easily.

[Under the moon]

I did some questioning of players in the game, and talked in-depth with an RP player new to the game.

Exactly what I said would happen is happening. Players who may have stopped to talk to, help out, and RP with new folks simply don't.

One player on IRC stated this sentiment. For the first time playing, they sold something instead of giving it away to someone in need. Their words?

"I am shamed."

[Maju]

I did some questioning of players in the game, and talked in-depth with an RP player new to the game.

Exactly what I said would happen is happening. Players who may have stopped to talk to, help out, and RP with new folks simply don't.

One player on IRC stated this sentiment. For the first time playing, they sold something instead of giving it away to someone in need. Their words?

"I am shamed."

Basically that's it. New players are left on their own because every tria is harder to get. Gold prices have risen and now gold buyers pay double than earlier in mines (and only a little more in city because it seems they would not make profit otherwise).

But the economy remains gold-centered and all that I can see is that people spends much more time than before digging for gold and less time doing other things.

To increase the grief, the gold mine(s) at the Mage Shop is not anymore. This only harms lowbies, I think, and people with little strength to carry large ammounts of gold.

But gold miners with some lvl and experience in dealing with ulbernauts are not so badly affected. Maybe they even get more trias in the end, even if hey have to sweat a little more.

The problem is as always elsewhere: in the lack of alternative professions and a real economic network. If I thought I could double my income melting ores, I would definitely try it... but most likely I will only get a little more trias after a very expensive investment. If repairing weapons would be a lot cheaper than buying new ones, repairers would have a decent living... but so far it's not. Etc.

[Karyuu]

I'd like to make a comment about the "I can no longer give away tria to newbies" complaint.

In what other popular MMO do you have old members constantly giving away thousands of their pieces of currency to beginners? It doesn't happen, and it's not supposed to -  you're not meant to have 20k trias you can randomly throw at newbies.

Game balance doesn't happen overnight, people. This is step one. Further adjustments will be done all the time.