My opinion on the economic issue

[Natrina]

 Okay... My five cents on this thread.

 I don't think you're seeing it well. The problem is not the lack of money. Money should be less then we have, if you're having more then 500 trias in a in-game month, by settings, you're doing good (remind me what's a month in-game. It's more then a day at least, isn't it? How many people make 500 trias a day? Just first-day noobies, probably). This is a roleplay-game, not some hack and slash in which what the devs care with is making people advance to high levels quickly, the main care should be giving players immersion, that's the keyword here.

 Do we have that? No. The economy cannot be a source of immersion as it is. But the answer is not in most of your suggestions, or so I humbly think. I have to confess I don't understand what individual people go through. Yet, the thing I think is most of the problem currently lies in lootable weapons and gold. Loot is too relevant to the general market - it floods and destroys whatever us crafters could make to fight against it. And gold, well. If you don't know what's wrong with it, ask, I'll make a list (namely, here, is the point of gold as a source of money that floods gold miners and gold smelters with it, though mostly the first).

 People are used to get way too money in way too little time and PS is delivering that, instead of just sticking to the settings. I understand why, we're only testing. To build a realistic economy, or a just and balanced one, takes time. And it's not something you want to get with only two or three crafts in the players' repertoire. Things are fine for now.

 On making the lootable weapons unusable, I don't think many would like that and I don't think it's wrong. Personally, I would like the loot to just be realistic. Rarity on good loot being the idea here, unless you're fighting some rich gladiator. On the training and weapon-repairs' prices, I wouldn't know. Crafting takes much to reach high levels so I don't have a notion of how much money it can take (but yes, I guess a farmer wouldn't be able to pay a 10k training in any day of his life). Weapon repair is weapon repair, people who indulge into practicing it are usually people who don't need much money. The only way to make people capable from profiting from it would be to decrease the cost of repair kits by a lot, or else buying a knew one would be better (assuming the maintenance cost you put there was a sum of repair kits' cost only).

[Under the moon]

I understand it very well. The problem is not in balance. As I have said before, I do not care greatly about balance. When I said certain players will not stop to ‘help’ new folks, I did not mean they would hand them everything they need. What I meant is they feel like they DON’T have the time to stop trying to get the money for their training, and show a new player around town and teach them how to RP in an IC manner.

The problem is not too much money. It is not enough time. If you want to regulate how much money players can get in the game, don’t nerf how much time it takes to get it. Instead, put a lower cap on how much it sells for, reduce the cost of training, and reduce the amount NPCs will buy from a single player in a day. Or, put an exponential tax on any money earned over a certain amount. That way, money can be gained quickly, leaving players with plenty of time to explore other parts of the game and help new folks integrate, but the amount of earned money per day is still diminished in a realistic manner.

Balance is good, but not at the cost of time and fun.

[Maju]

^^ I totally agree with the above.

Also give those poor newbies a knife to start with, please. It's pathetic seeing them fighting rats barehanded. 

[Jeraphon]

In what other popular MMO do you have old members constantly giving away thousands of their pieces of currency to beginners?

Seen it in Maple Story.

Yeah, I know, it was shameful for me to have played it in the first place. But when I was a newbie there, I managed to quintuple my income from a single handout by a veteran. He was randomly dropping bags of money. Go figure...

Not saying it's a sign of a balanced economy cause it sure isn't. But I'm just saying I've seen it before

[bilbous]

I stopped giving stuff away fairly quickly and long before the gold rush when I figured out that the newbie I was aiding was just as likely to be a long-time player pulling the newbie scam. After that I would show them to the sewers, give them a non-magical weapon or two if I had some to spare and any advice they asked for. I never asked for much else for myself when I started and was totally disgusted by the greed of the players selling their then (fairly) common icy swords with 30 slash at 50k or whatever they figured they could get. Information is the most valuable thing you can give to a newcomer and if they want to be spoon-fed otherwise it should be roundly discouraged.

Progression in the game is a little slow, at first due to  not enough money and pp's and later due to not enough money alone. I haven't worked up a new character and my old one (once maxed, more or less) is now no more than middling experienced. I should really start fresh from scratch but I just do not have the time or inclination and rarely get in with my main anymore for more than 10-15 minutes.

By the way, there were many helpful people in T4C who would give you junk to get started or long-term loans. Of course there were many others who would rob you blind if you let them stand too close to you outside the city where pvp didn't work.

[zanzibar]

I was referring to the entire thread. This topic is being discussed in multiple locations, so I would rather people find one and stick to it.

If multiple threads are being started on the same topic, then you should care less about the mess and care more about the reason for the mess.

In what other popular MMO do you have old members constantly giving away thousands of their pieces of currency to beginners?

In what other popular MMO do beginners need the charity of old members in order to enjoy the game?

[Karyuu]

Thanks Zanzibar, but I'll handle what I should care about. I can't do anything about game balance by myself, but I presume people like Xordan and TomT would rather refer to one thread when they go looking for ideas than have to search through multiple forum sections. It's just easier on us, and it's not that much to ask from you.

When it comes to needing charity in order to begin, I have already stated that game balance does not happen overnight.

[zanzibar]

Thanks Zanzibar, but I'll handle what I should care about.

Uh, doesn't that go without saying?   And what's the point in giving people a response like that?  "I can do x if I feel like it, so unplug your keyboard!"  You aren't saying anything, and you leave people with the impression that you don't care about the things they care about.

I can't do anything about game balance by myself, but I presume people like Xordan and TomT would rather refer to one thread when they go looking for ideas than have to search through multiple forum sections. It's just easier on us, and it's not that much to ask from you.

Yup.  However, that's just not the way things work on the internet.  You can ask people a hundred times to play by your rules, but no matter how good your rules are, they just won't pay attention to them.  When you're looking for feedback, all you can do is take what's given to you.

When it comes to needing charity in order to begin, I have already stated that game balance does not happen overnight.

When it comes to building bridges, I have already stated that oranges grow on trees.

[Hwnae]

In what other popular MMO do you have old members constantly giving away thousands of their pieces of currency to beginners?

Seen it in Maple Story.

Yeah, I know, it was shameful for me to have played it in the first place. But when I was a newbie there, I managed to quintuple my income from a single handout by a veteran. He was randomly dropping bags of money. Go figure...

Not saying it's a sign of a balanced economy cause it sure isn't. But I'm just saying I've seen it before

Knowing Maple Story ... that was probably a cheater who got that money in an illegal way and wanted popularity points for not being reported

[Waylander]

I can't do anything about game balance by myself, but I presume people like Xordan and TomT would rather refer to one thread when they go looking for ideas than have to search through multiple forum sections. It's just easier on us, and it's not that much to ask from you.

Yup.  However, that's just not the way things work on the internet.  You can ask people a hundred times to play by your rules, but no matter how good your rules are, they just won't pay attention to them.  When you're looking for feedback, all you can do is take what's given to you.

When you have the means to enforce your rules (I.E. deleting threads) you can usually get them followed
Added to which, I don't really see what your point was in replying to her point at all, Zanzi.  Do you really need to hear yourself talk that much?
(I know I do <.<)
I think you have less faith in the forum community than I do, Zanzi, that's pretty scary.  I like to believe that people will follow such a simple request.

When it comes to needing charity in order to begin, I have already stated that game balance does not happen overnight.

When it comes to building bridges, I have already stated that oranges grow on trees.

I don't see you stating that anywhere.
I'm taking it you are saying what Karyuu said was unrelated.  I'd completely disagree.  She's merely pointing out that at this stage of game development new players are likely to need charity in order to begin.  To expect a change in this now is silly, so many new features need to be added that there is a good chance that after a couple releases in will become imbalanced again and the player base will start complaining about it again.  Why should the devs take the time to fix balancing issues now when they can hope to do it by adding new features?

What Karyuu said is the simple truth.  The game will not be balanced in a while.

[zanzibar]

I think you have less faith in the forum community than I do, Zanzi, that's pretty scary.  I like to believe that people will follow such a simple request.

New posters are the main culprits.

She's merely pointing out that at this stage of game development new players are likely to need charity in order to begin.

So?

[Coneitic]

make your first toon a female. you'll get showered with items and money all day long.

that balances the economy.

[Maju]

She's merely pointing out that at this stage of game development new players are likely to need charity in order to begin.

So?

It's a problem in several senses:

1. New players already need help in form of OOC info on how to play the game or how to start to do it. With newcomers needing charity you are putting further load on "veterans" (I mean any non-newbie), some of whom may think is better to sell anything they grab rather than give it to some newbie who may not even stay in the game for long, specially now that a decent income is more difficult to attain.

2. Not all new players may like to beg for money/weapons. They may be shy or just proud. And really any peasant should have a dagger, even if just for cutting cheese and bread.

Personally, I used to be randomly generous to newcomers... just because I feel it's unjust they don't even start with a knife nor any easy way to obtain money (the easiest quest starts in East Hydlaa... what's already a little too far, unless you are a diaboli - Harnquist's 20t quest may well be ignored, really, as it helps nothing - and rats are too often "impervious to attack") but now, with the economic difficulties, I feel much less inclined to spare my trias or my looted weapons, really.

A new char of an experienced player will surely get through these issues without many problems... but a real newbie is left to mercy from experienced players, who surely don't have the time, the money or the will to help yet another newcomer (there are a lot of them), when he/she needs to care first of all of his/her own business.

[zanzibar]

She's merely pointing out that at this stage of game development new players are likely to need charity in order to begin.

So?

It's a problem in several senses:

Oh, don't misunderstand me:  I too believe it's a major problem.

[neko kyouran]

Closing thread as the other thread in the complaint section is getting the most attention and it has been requested that the issue be kept centralized.