Weddings - what's the deal?

[Natrina]

 So. The other day I was walking through the bugtracker and came upon a bug fix which stopped showing the button to marry someone when people were of the same-sex.

 First off, that button has been there for quite a while now. If it was going to cause someone a homophobe attack, we would've heard of it by now. Also, homosexual relationships have been in-game since Molecular Blue and even today there's a couple or two out there that I've seen, and I'm working most of the time I'm in-game (meaning, I don't usually have time to grasp people's relationships).

 But that's not my point here. My point is that the rule lacks coherence. It would be all right to put us in a world in which same-sex is banned - okay, it's medieval and all, I get it. But when kran, neutral-sex beings, come into play, things get a bit off. If the idea is to stop same-sex based on the idea that from their union nothing results, and as such in medieval societies (big number of deaths) they're bad cause they will influence negatively the growth of the population by not reproducing, why can krans marry other races? Obviously you can do what you want with a kran the result will be the same as with someone of the same sex - no children. Also, wouldn't a kran marrying a kran be a same-sex relation? And why would krans marry in the first place if they can generate children on their own? Copying other races? Might be.

 Maybe the idea was not to shock. And I can also understand this, as the game is supposed to be for all ages and many parents would probably be shocked to see their kids befriending, or being part of, same-sex couples in a game. But then, we should be talking about censoring the perception of homosexuality in marriages. You're telling me that if someone comes into my room and I'm talking with a kran and it's husband, who's a ynnwn, that person won't think that's homosexuality right there? Because even if krans are neutral of sex, they have male shapes and want it or not whatever male character you put by the side of a kran, as they are currently, it'll look gay. Probably not to our character, but it will to the players and I suppose that's the problem here.

 So, come on, give me a logic.

[Suno_Regin]

So. The other day I was walking through the bugtracker and came upon a bug fix which stopped showing the button to marry someone when people were of the same-sex.

 First off, that button has been there for quite a while now. If it was going to cause someone a homophobe attack, we would've heard of it by now. Also, homosexual relationships have been in-game since Molecular Blue and even today there's a couple or two out there that I've seen, and I'm working most of the time I'm in-game (meaning, I don't usually have time to grasp people's relationships).

 But that's not my point here. My point is that the rule lacks coherence. It would be all right to put us in a world in which same-sex is banned - okay, it's medieval and all, I get it. But when kran, neutral-sex beings, come into play, things get a bit off. If the idea is to stop same-sex based on the idea that from their union nothing results, and as such in medieval societies (big number of deaths) they're bad cause they will influence negatively the growth of the population by not reproducing, why can krans marry other races? Obviously you can do what you want with a kran the result will be the same as with someone of the same sex - no children. Also, wouldn't a kran marrying a kran be a same-sex relation? And why would krans marry in the first place if they can generate children on their own? Copying other races? Might be.

 Maybe the idea was not to shock. And I can also understand this, as the game is supposed to be for all ages and many parents would probably be shocked to see their kids befriending, or being part of, same-sex couples in a game. But then, we should be talking about censoring the perception of homosexuality in marriages. You're telling me that if someone comes into my room and I'm talking with a kran and it's husband, who's a ynnwn, that person won't think that's homosexuality right there? Because even if krans are neutral of sex, they have male shapes and want it or not whatever male character you put by the side of a kran, as they are currently, it'll look gay. Probably not to our character, but it will to the players and I suppose that's the problem here.

 So, come on, give me a logic.

I'm sure all beings feel love, even Krans. You can't say them marrying themselves or others is illogical because they can't have children. If you love someone, and they feel the same way, you get married.

[Draklar]

Wait, wait. Why do Kran marry people?

Suno, um, I don't think I even want to bother arguing on this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_%28scientific_views%29

Anyway, can someone educated please tell me whether ancient greece had homosexual marriages?

[evil scotsman]

Not only in ancient greece, but in many cultures, from ancient to modern times there are many instances of culturally endorsed same sex marriages, American indians, various tribal cultures in the pacific, china, japan, mesopotamia, medieval europe, ( yes documented evidence of christian same sex marriages has been found, in fact two eastern european saints are recorded as being married and this union was endorsed by a church marriage rite in 10th century Kiev).

In fact records of these types of marraige can be found in christian records from the 8th to the 18th centuries.

As to the question of Kran marriages, since kran are in fact biologically 'sexless' then they can be said to be asexual marriages, I feel however that regardless there should be no reason to prevent kran marrying, since marriage throughout history has been a contract between two adults, the promises of fidelity, sharing of resources, and long term commitment being pretty much the basis of the majority of these ceremonies since the beginning of recorded history.

[Draklar]

As to the question of Kran marriages, since kran are in fact biologically 'sexless' then they can be said to be asexual marriages, I feel however that regardless there should be no reason to prevent kran marrying, since marriage throughout history has been a contract between two adults, the promises of fidelity, sharing of resources, and long term commitment being pretty much the basis of the majority of these ceremonies since the beginning of recorded history.

Okay, this part gives me a shade of doubt for the previous one. I know there were agreements of this sort and I know some people use them as support for past homosexual marriages. But I also digged up that these agreements had nothing to do with marriages and were simply contracts held between, for example, two brothers.
But I could be wrong.

[neko kyouran]

I think when DivineLight presented the first draft of a marriage system there was this discussion (I think even on ML) and the decision was no gay marriages (except among Krans, considering their peculiarity).

Not sure there is so much more to say about that, also because it has already created polemic (plenty of threads if I remember right and people bothering on IRC) in both directions.

That's all I got on this subject.


(don't bother trying to go to that thread I quoted from.  That's from a "secret" board.) 

[evil scotsman]

In some cases this was in fact what happened, and some cases have been perhaps misrepresented to support the pro-homosexual marraige case, however there are still credible documented cases of same-sex marriages in chuch records, also documented cases of same-sex marriage practices in historical records of greater antiquity, such as the chinese, mesapotamian, japanese and cretan/greek cultures.

These are supported by a large number of scholars of history, however there are also some who argue that certain cultures while practising certain homosexual 'rite of passage' ceremonies may not have fully supported full same-sex marriages, however the evidence for both cases may often be ambiguous at best, or subject to interpretation depending on the point being made. What is certain in the case of ancient greece in particular is that philosophically the ancient greek culture certainly discussed homosexuality in a frank and open manner, in fact there is a section of Plato's dialogues on the subject, which appears to support the argument for homosexual marriages in greek culture at that time.

However I fear we may be sliding off-topic, in regard to the change of the marry option being changed i agree that it may in fact seem to lack a certain coherence, however although the game is played in a medieval fantasy setting, the truth is it's played by people who are of our present culture, with all the conceptions we have of our sexuality and morality, RP nonwithstanding, it's hard to distance ourselves from our upbringing to such an extent that evocative topics such as race, religeon and sexuality cease to influence our characters in-game.

It's also a difficult balance between RP and the real world, where our actions in-game will affect others perceptions of the world they play in. Sometimes we forget that our world in the game is 'perfect' in that we help decide how it is developed, the ideas and ideals we bring into the world will influence the direction of that development to an extent, and in certain subjects it's perhaps best to err on the side of caution.

[Izzabella]

my only complaint  on the new marriage button is where now everyone can see it adn  knows its there and I get all these random purposals all the time..I mean its strange...stop and say hello at least frist.. I am serisous I have gotten 3 in the last few days from people I never talked to or knew....thats kinda annoying.

[Draklar]

Aha, many thanks. I would just prefer if things like that were growing out of the setting, not real life perception of "social correctness".
Though liberal approach to homosexuality in ancient Greece isn't much of a proof by itself, as ancient Greece was one of those cultures that made a clear distinction between love and sex.

Anyway, I think distancing yourself from real life worldviews is what roleplaying is about? I realise there are other priorities in Planeshift roleplaying (that's why I "never have time" to play PS anymoe), but...

...

Okay, I guess I have no actual point there.

However! There's another factor, which conveniently enough I cannot disclose here (I think) >:|
And nor can I present it before Xillix under high possibility of either being yelled or laughed out.
Because apparently I always worry about stupid stuff.

Okay, I guess I don't really have an argument against it. So umm... Yeah, sure, hooray for homosexual marriages \o/

[Unnamed_Source]

Wait, wait. Why do Kran marry people?

Most noteably for the health benefits and if they're in the military, so they can live off base...

On a more serious note, how about bringing about the idea of marrying more than one person, as in harems or polygamy?
What's that race that will mate with everything on two legs, I would think they the ideal practitioners.

[Natrina]

I think when DivineLight presented the first draft of a marriage system there was this discussion (I think even on ML) and the decision was no gay marriages (except among Krans, considering their peculiarity).

Not sure there is so much more to say about that, also because it has already created polemic (plenty of threads if I remember right and people bothering on IRC) in both directions.

 This is exactly what I'm calling logic-less. The "peculiarity" of krans actually pulls them towards no marriages at all, instead of full freedom. And you're telling me I won't see a menki with a menki, but it'll be possible to see a kran married to a male dwarf. I can see you people discussed it, and it is a matter of much discussion, but what I am asking for here is actually a setting-wise justification for such. Of course that little is disclosed about the setting, so just saying that there is a justification and that we're eventually get to see it, it'll be fine by me. Marriages are implemented currently, though, so it should be fine to release it if it exists, no?

[Xordan]

And you're telling me I won't see a menki with a menki, but it'll be possible to see a kran married to a male dwarf.

I believe that Kran may only marry Kran. Correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't tested it.

[Maju]

Krans appear with the marry button to all females. Anyhow, Krans cannot have sex as such, so what's the point of marriage?

Anyhow, I'm against the sexist approach to marriage. Personally I think that the best solution is to supress marriage in game mechanics completely, making it a decission of players and a matter of roleplaying.

[Izzabella]

I like the marraige opption don't take it out, it makes the game more realisitic and such, I mean in rl when you get married then you file papers...

[Hybee]

I would like it if there were same-sex marriages. I am not homosexual myself, but I would like to be able to choose for my character.
I suppose, however, it is more realistic to not allow gay marriages, as most societies sadly do not allow them. 
BTW what is all the talk about sex? I don't think you can have sex in game, can you? I've never tried.