For the love of *insert whatever here* people .....

[Draklar]

Zan, I think you're missing the big picture here.

Namely what people like Xillix or Karyuu are/were sometimes going through with the current state of forums :<

[zanzibar]

Zan, I think you're missing the big picture here.  Namely what people like Xillix or Karyuu are/were sometimes going through with the current state of forums :<

It's bigger than just the forums.

Looking at the accusation (concerning consequences) towards Neko's actions you posted up there, I don't think you have a near to decent idea on the situation that's happening here. This isn't to say I think the situation is deep at all. In fact, it's downright shallow.
It's based on a simple thing called frustration. Everyone are frustrated and that doesn't do well for professionalism.

How much abuse one can take before getting frustrated depends on personality. But professional or not, in certain environments everyone are going to get frustrated at one point or another.

Neko's "actions" are only a very small piece of it, and he didn't start off using the tone he now does.  I think the evolution of his style as moderator is better understood as symptomatic of the problems.  He is, in a sense, another casualty.

Frustration may be a big part of it.  If it was only frustation, I'm not sure that would make things shallow.  And I'm still not convinced that abuse by the players - if that is indeed the abuse you're alluding to - is an important factor here.  I think the devs are smart enough to expect the occassional bad apple, and I think they're capable of the emotional maturity required to not let such bad apples affect them so harshly.  But it isn't even bad apples that we're talking about here.  It's about callous and abusive treatment of regular and well intentioned players.  I guess you could argue that a state of paranoia and extreme defensiveness has been conditioned into them, but I don't find that to be a satisfactory answer.

Leaders as servants of the people eh, Zanzi?

Leaders as servants of the team they lead.  Serve the servants so the servants can better serve the people.

I don't quite agree with assigning them an inhuman elevated position.  The inability to make mistakes does not make a better person. It is the act of messing up occasionally, acknowledging that fact and learning a lesson from it that turns us into better human beings.   You say that you see treating people like human beings is a good thing, yet you find that the Devs, moderators and GM's need to act above human standards?  Well I'd much rather have a humane leader who shows emotion and care, at the risk of venting frustration from time to time, than one who acts with professional courtesy at all times but may think we're just a bunch of kids, not worth getting riled up about.  In my opinion, your way creates a gap between player and dev and gives rise to the feelings of superiority, which you want to avoid.

There's the trick.  Leadership is not something everyone is capable of.  This is very true, and you're right to point it out.  That's why you should be careful about who you put into a leadership position.  And yes, it is important to take care of people without making them feel like they're inferior.  Not everyone is capable of it.  And it's not professional courtesy I'm talking about.  I would say that it's on a level somewhat above that.

I've seen a lot more emotional involvement and community-dev contact in PS lately and I have to admit that I like that change. I'd much rather have my devs to be people with feelings, who I can talk to ... but whom I can also hurt as a less positive but necessary side-effect ... than elevated servants who stay behind their masks of leadership.

Feelings are good.  Being abusive is bad.  Projecting a mask is not effective leadership.

Being human also means you don't need to take someone's crap if you don't want to, it means you can show anger ... as long as you do not become anger.

I'm very glad you said this!  There is a difference between anger and hatred.  Hate is based on the need to destroy.  Anger is based on a need for change.  There is a not so subtle difference.

To round up my, problably pointless, opinion I'd like to say that I commend people like Karyuu and Xillix who give their, sometimes emotional, opinions about certain encounters and show very high levels of maturity at the same time. And I'd like to see the people who think the only defense against the hordes of egocentrical and insensitive internet dwellers is becoming insensitive themselves, being dropkicked back into the stone age.  Don't become an asshole because you're surrounded with assholes, it'll only make the smell worse.

I don't think your posts are pointless.  I think you've compressed everything rather effectively with the line "don't become an asshole because you're surrounded by assholes".  I'd rather people remember that if all this crap I'm saying about effective leadership doesn't make sense to them.

[Zan]

I didn't miss the big picture, Draklar ... I just didn't see the need to give disrespectful people more attention than they deserve By the way I do agree with your point, sometimes the moderators of this forum are too gentle. Quite a few people here could use a good spanking to learn more respect for the hardworking men and women that make planeshift possible.

Zanzi, looks like we're on the same level then.

[acraig]

It comes down to this.  Either we post and try to be part of the community or we forsake the forums completely.  Personally I would rather keep posting.  But if we are going to have these same conversations over and over again it might be better for the development team to just stop posting and just post updates.   If you want to hold us to a higher standard then we have to remove ourselves from the community and become a faceless organization posting under the "PlaneShift-Team" name.   

[bilbous]

Personally I have no problem with the way the moderation team works. I have more trouble with certain members of the community who feel it is their right and/or responsibility to drive them out.
This board seems quite tolerant to me. Ideally, perhaps there is room for improvement but we do not live in an ideal world. If you continue to drive out the volunteers who are willing to put in the time eventually the board will die. People should try to live up to the standards they expect of other people.

By the way, I do not see board moderation or development team member as positions of leadership. They do amount to a certain kind of authority. It is not the job of the moderators to take crap or teach etiquette. Their job is to enforce the rules. School is out, learn to cope on your own and welcome to the real world. The development team members job is to do what is needed to be done for the development of the game and their presence here although mandated by the development leader is a courtesy to the community and they do not need to take crap either.
 

[Kerol]

If you want to hold us to a higher standard then we have to remove ourselves from the community and become a faceless organization posting under the "PlaneShift-Team" name.   

Which I would prefer myself.
I've had enough of all the people complaining about the "lack of professionalism".

The funny thing is that people apparently expect such and psychologically make the equation "professionalism = faceless organisation" while mentally blank out that behind each organisation are individiuals.
It seems that for the audience PS was too "individual" in the past. Probably it also has to do with the current size and speed of the project. A small project easier is regarded as hobby and individual fun; at a bigger project a different measuring rod is applied.
Now we get compared to real big projects with the result that we're seen as too hobbiest (and therefor unprofessional) which is unthinkable for a project of this size.

Let's say it this way round: PS doesn't fit into either category at this moment. It's not a small individual backyard project, it's not a WoW v.2 either. It's not a linux or a wikipedia and the worst thing is (when trying to categorize PS) the team grows - and with that the content that is not open at all.

PS failed at first as a 2D moneymaker. It became a hobby. Now it grows out of the shoes that fit to the hobby image. Let's become professional - let the whiners whine, ban the abusers, promote the quality contributors, get donations from the players who really enjoy playing - and all that as a faceless organisation as the audience expects it.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

pro·fes·sion·al      /prəˈfɛʃənl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pruh-fesh-uh-nl]
–adjective
1.   following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.



vol·un·teer      /ˌvɒlənˈtɪər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[vol-uhn-teer] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.   a person who voluntarily offers himself or herself for a service or undertaking.
2.   a person who performs a service willingly and without pay.
3.   Military. a person who enters the service voluntarily rather than through conscription or draft, esp. for special or temporary service rather than as a member of the regular or permanent army.
4.   Law.
a.   a person whose actions are not founded on any legal obligation so to act.
b.   a person who intrudes into a matter that does not concern him or her, as a person who pays the debt of another where he or she is neither legally nor morally bound to do so and has no interest to protect in making the payment.



I am not a mod or an administrator and therefore have no obligation to be moderate or administrate, if i were one I would be severe indeed, and we would not have seen this thread (which was originally intended to offer us thanks for our work and request greater patience and understanding from posters on this forum) turn into one poster's personal agenda against specific devs. Until I am paid for this work I shall reserve my right to call a troll a troll. Good luck to anyone who has intent to rat on me or any member of my team.

My voice is only privileged in the minds of my readers over other posters by their honoring my contributions relative to their own, no one needs to honor that. I appreciate that some people do respect my opinion, but here, I am just a poster like any other. I never took or gave more or less sh*t than I do today. I do not delete posts and cannot ban people.

I have lost my temper a time or two but I believe I have readily been forgiven by the community at large.

To all earnest caring players, I am arguing against forswearing these forums entirely. If you think our absence would be a loss, now would be a good time to voice those concerns.

[evil scotsman]

for my part I think that the forswearing of the forums by the Dev Team in general would be a sad day for planeshift, it's obvious that there are many reasons why the team would wish to insulate themselves from the personal nature of some of the comments that have been levelled at then from time to time. However removing their prescence from these forums other than to moderate without comment or indeed feedback would be, in my opinion, to create a division between the team and the players.

I hope it won't come to this, since one of the strengths of planeshift is that the players can actually communicate with the development team, and this makes it a much richer experience for both parties.

I realise the frustrations that some of the team may feel, when faced with criticism of decisions that have been made in regard to content, or the way that content has been presented, however this must be tempered with the justifiable pride they feel in their accomplishments thus far, with each new piece of content, or feature added the game becomes a subtly different one, and people in general fear change, which can give rise to initial opposition.

It's human nature to keep quiet when we are contented with a particular situation, and this can give rise to the feeling that those who are opposed are in the majority, since they shout the loudest, and the most often.

As players and contributors to the forums I feel that we have certain rights, in that we have the right to post constructive criticism, advice, help, suggestions for improvement, additional content, however as people we should realise that the Dev Team are people too, with feelings, and that those feelings can be hurt by some of the personal comments that have been made, I personally would have dealt with some posters far less leniently than has been the case. Like it or not, we are guests here.

I understand that players have in some cases a lot of personal time and emotion invested in this world we call a game, some have been here since the early days, and feel that this gives them a greater right to speak to others in any way they feel, i'm sorry to have to tell you this, but unless you are a member of the dev, admin or mod team, then your rights are the same as everyone else.

I for one was not surprised to see one mod leave these forums recently, and had I been in the same place would have banned at least two people, however i'm not as nice a person, and the forum is now actually diminished due to the lack of a decent caring member of the mod team.

What we have is a very free, open and gentle mod team, what we deserve is a harsh, strict and reactionary mod team, I know which I prefer.

In conclusion i'd like to say, that if everyone here was to show a little forebearance before posting, a little care in their choice of words, and a little humanity when dealing with others, then this would be a great place to post, until then, you'll probably find me in IRC, at least there the consequenses of tactlessness and rudeness are absent, as shall I be if the Devs decide this forum is better left to the players.

[zanzibar]

for my part I think that the forswearing of the forums by the Dev Team in general would be a sad day for planeshift, it's obvious that there are many reasons why the team would wish to insulate themselves from the personal nature of some of the comments that have been levelled at then from time to time.

If an individual is in fact so sensitive that they can't handle the noobs, then perhaps some distance would be wise.  However I don't think that's what's going on here.  There are individuals - both past and present - that, to be blunt, get high off their power and enjoy being mean to people.  They tend to leave after a while because of the effect they have on their peers, but it's been a trend that's been around for years.

I didn't miss the big picture, Draklar ... I just didn't see the need to give disrespectful people more attention than they deserve By the way I do agree with your point, sometimes the moderators of this forum are too gentle. Quite a few people here could use a good spanking to learn more respect for the hardworking men and women that make planeshift possible. Zanzi, looks like we're on the same level then.

Treating people with respect does not mean agreeing with them or being permissive of their behaviour.  I'm not asking people to be nice to trolls.  If anything, I'm saying individuals should stop contributing to the problem.

It comes down to this.  Either we post and try to be part of the community or we forsake the forums completely.  Personally I would rather keep posting.  But if we are going to have these same conversations over and over again it might be better for the development team to just stop posting and just post updates.   If you want to hold us to a higher standard then we have to remove ourselves from the community and become a faceless organization posting under the "PlaneShift-Team" name.

This is a false dillema.  There are many different ways a person can contribute to the forum.  Some ways are helpful, some ways are not.  What it seems like you're saying is "Either we do what we've been doing, or we leave."  I don't think that's constructive or true.


@Bilbous:  I believe the only two people I labelled as being in official leadership positions are Vengeance and Xillix, but it is true that whenever a dev or GM is bad to a person it reflects poorly on the project.


@Kerol:  Like acraig, you're presenting a choice that doesn't exist.  There are a lot of options besides treating people poorly and becoming a faceless organization.

I am not a mod or an administrator and therefore have no obligation to be moderate or administrate, if i were one I would be severe indeed, and we would not have seen this thread (which was originally intended to offer us thanks for our work and request greater patience and understanding from posters on this forum) turn into one poster's personal agenda against specific devs.

You are the settings team leader.  People judge the project by your behaviour.  Those under you look to your behaviour as an example of how they themselves should behave.

Until I am paid for this work I shall reserve my right to call a troll a troll. Good luck to anyone who has intent to rat on me or any member of my team... To all earnest caring players, I am arguing against forswearing these forums entirely. If you think our absence would be a loss, now would be a good time to voice those concerns.

These sentences really work against you and the point you're trying to make.  You've hidden insults within your post that support my view of things more than they support the view you're trying to push.

[Draklar]

@Zan: Hmm, okay. I would say it's way too hard to participate in the community while ignoring trolls, but apparently we share opinion on how the trolls should be dealt with... Which I guess puts me in agreement with the general statement.

These sentences really work against you and the point you're trying to make.

No, see... In your opinion these sentences really work against Xillix.
Otherwise you're implying Xillix loses in the eyes of community, whereas I believe in majority the community is there for Xil.

Oy, speaking of being helpful, zanzi. You mentioned people creating false dilema, but each time you said that, you also forgot to explain what the other options are. But knowing you to be a spotless member of this community, I'm sure you'll fix that right away.

Those under you look to your behaviour as an example of how they themselves should behave.

Hahahaha xD

[zanzibar]

These sentences really work against you and the point you're trying to make.

No, see... In your opinion these sentences really work against Xillix.
Otherwise you're implying Xillix loses in the eyes of community, whereas I believe in majority the community is there for Xil.

Oh definately!  I'm behind Xillix as well.  Liking someone and thinking they have good things to offer doesn't mean you'll never be critical of them.

Oy, speaking of being helpful, zanzi. You mentioned people creating false dilema, but each time you said that, you also forgot to explain what the other options are. But knowing you to be a spotless member of this community, I'm sure you'll fix that right away.

Haven't I made a third option pretty clear?  It's to stay, but to correct the bad behaviour.

Those under you look to your behaviour as an example of how they themselves should behave.

Hahahaha xD

Do you disagree?

[Draklar]

Oh definately!  I'm behind Xillix as well.  Liking someone and thinking they have good things to offer doesn't mean you'll never be critical of them.

Yay for out of context responses \o/

Haven't I made a third option pretty clear?  It's to stay, but to correct the bad behaviour.

Oh, of course! Well duh, how could we be so stupid! Obviously mods and devs go offensive on the players out of their own, totally unaffected choice. It's not like they lose control or anything. They're in a full control all the way, no frustration and emotions taking over their attitude; no loss of the cool reasoning. Man, seriously. How could we be so stupid. Thanks, zanzi, you're the bestest o/

Do you disagree?

No, no. *snort* You're totally right.

... xD

[zanzibar]

<3 Draklar

I don't think people's self control is as low as you suggest.

[Kerol]

Haven't I made a third option pretty clear?  It's to stay, but to correct the bad behaviour.

Actually, if I were responsible for these forums, I had taken action against the first three people who went off topic within this thread.
I was not talking about leaving the forums unattended - in the contrary. I was talking about cutting down the senseless arguments and mudthrowing towards the staff, all the people who seek help here and regular users who don't need to go on an ego trip.
I was talking about involvement of the devs or GMs or mods with player topics and not getting involved if not called. And if involved, having the team answer as one after internal discussion.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Allowing trolls to continue to troll reflects far worse on the dev team and moderators than calling a troll a troll.

Draklar knows well I fight passionately with my team on many issues but I weight their words carefully because they also give their time not just empty snarky comments. It is very easy to say what is wrong. Solving it is what my team members and other devs and gms work to do every day.

I invite everyone to look at the post history of Xillix and judge for yourselves whether I am fairly judicious.

On the issue of venge, well I will let him speak for himself