Roleplay vs. powerlevelling

[Waylander]

I believe you havent read the latest Herald yet @ Waylander...

I have actually.  Besides a few things which bothered me (I think Elvi is a guy ) I enjoyed it.  And then I bugged you about my book


....


There will always be heavy balancing issues as long as PlaneShift is a tech demo.  We know that the combat system will be changed in the future and, though it makes things annoying for now, it's just something we must endure.

One may point out that books have been fixed, guildhouses have been added and plate armor has been added within a few weeks.  The Dev team is obviously busy and doing a great job.

@Draklar: God

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Settings has been very actively moving in a RP direction for some time . . . You will see . . .

Engine also has some hardcore rpers on it's team so . . .You will see . . .

[Sangwa]

Sangwa, I stated this many times in past and probably will state it many times to come: Planeshift isn't really a roleplaying game. It lacks roleplaying features.
Over the recent months I learnt that stating as little is enough to make local top roleplayers accuse you of not being a roleplayer.
I also learnt the dev team fully aknowledges these problems and works hard to turn it all upside down, giving more dvantage to the roleplayers.

So please, who is more aware of this situation?

We want to be aware as well. Blind trust equals idiocy.

If you have learned that much, I'd like if someone could instruct the rest of us on that as well. In fact, that's the only thing I believe Donari's asking. To be reassured that the development of planeshift will start leaning more on roleplay.

we have said before that changes will come and balance will come and that we are working on it, that should be enough.

It's not enough. Why should it be enough? Factual examples would be in order, to please my beloved ego.

You've implemented books, that's nice. Implemented guild houses, that's nice (though without actually correcting the economy before implementing such an economy break through). Will the economy start making sense? Will you correct the leveling system? Will you begin implementing utility items before implementing the next weapon? Will the next spell that is created be another attack spell or will it have another use, like reducing fall damage/allowing for quicker movement/<insert other non attack effect here>?
I must warn that I may be out of date as far as what is implemented is concerned. I wouldn't mind being told wrong and welcomed into a world of improvements after though.

[Cebot]

In regard of the original topic, made by Donari, I have to leave a comment:

Donari, we both know a lot of people who have pl'ed their stats and skills and gained trias by powerlevelling a skill to finally get a living from it (I am included here), we both also know people who create chars for RP only and delete them when the RP is over, also we both know people who RP their chars and are rich without training them at all (or even very hardly) - But does it mean that Powerlevellers DO not RP at all? Or does it mean that RP'ers should not train at all? I think it is ones own decision how to play the game, either by pure rp'ing, or by pure leveling, or by combining level and RP doesn't really matter, as everyone plays the game to have fun (I suppose)

The thing is, that Planeshift is a computer game, not a tabletop game. If everyone would ONLY RP their chars, without training them, then the devs could stop their work, remove combat system, remove fightable npc's, remove more than the half of the items which are available. but then also half of the players are gone (probably more).

I agree that there needs to be more balance in-game, but that is something the rules department has to do (like balancing stamina, magic, hit chance, damage, gold rate at the mines and whatnotever)

Powerlevelling is indeed boring like hell, but who says people have to powerlevel? many do so, many camp the mobs and complain when you run around and take it once or twice before running away again, but those or mostly people who are new to the game. Potential roleplayers are willing to learn some rp, the rest will just level and level and level and realize once that there is no need to level, since there is no constant enemy that needs to be beaten (like in other games, where two or more parties have a war against eachother and all the game is based on that).

Anyways, about the guildhouse: The devs have set up this house to be the first guildhouse, there is work behind it, not just a click. They probably were surprised too by the fact that it was already rp'ed as a guildhouse by lolitra and had to quickly make something up IC when they got to know. remember that not everyone knew it was lolitras house and expecting everyone to know it is also rediculous. Perhaps a dev knew it, perhaps a gm knew it too, but the specific devs who made this up did not know and Talads spontanous reaction wasn't that bad if you ask me, the char Lolitra may have missed to pay the taxes, or the person who was sent to pay them has lost them and didn't tell anyone or whatever COULD have happened, the result was the taxes were not payed and the house was therefor auctioned.

Another point. the char Donari doesn't train or mine gold, you rp her as a merchant and was therefor able to get enough money. other people RP a pauper, would it make sense if a pauper bought the house? what hinders other people to RP their way? does every RP char need a house?

Greetings,
Cebot

[Duraza]

To tell the truth there are lots of good points made here. There is always a roleplay vs powerleveling problem. You see it obviously. However its not an easy problem to solve. Newbies, when playing a MMORPG, usually think first to powerlevel. Its because its out there in so many games. Some who notice the rp side to this game slowly convert, however most still keep the powerleveling idea. In the end you get half a game of power levelers, a quarter powerleveling rpers, and the rest are the only hardcore rpers. Thats how I see this game seperated currently.

Fact is how things are there is no way to stop someone from powerleveling. Anyone by game mechanics can do anything, max at any skill, etc. As long as that remains and we can all spend days to max every skill on the game powerleveling will never disappear. As long as we all have the ability to powerlevel there will always be someone who does it.

I stated this many times in past and probably will state it many times to come: Planeshift isn't really a roleplaying game.

This statement if any is true. I don't feel the reason why is because it lacks the features needed for rping (though it does). I think its because it has the features needed for powerleveling. Even with more rping features you will still run into the same problems as long as powerleveling is possible. How many powerlevelers are going to suddenly become merchants just because there is a better system for it? How many merchants are still going to be uber warriors?

The only way to rid powerleveling is to get rid of the one thing that always makes it possible. The ability to max every stat, wield every weapon, and ultimately become all powerful. Any other MMOPRG that is known for powerlevelers (like WoW) does not limit the characters from being able to master every aspect in the game. I always here "well this game isn't going to be like WoW" yet they keep the one thing that ties them to the powerleveling world.

Basically the only day when powerleveling will be at end is the day where there are no means to powerlevel, people would be limited to mastering only certain parts of the game. Once that happens none will have to worry about powerlevelers because everyone can't do everything. Only warriors and mages will fight, merchants will get rich, herbalist and alchemist would make potions, etc etc.

In response to you cebot I do agree. Firstly its not bad to level your character if your leveling stats to better enhance your rp. While I still refuse to do any training with my character Duraza you would find my other characters training inorder to have stats with game mechanics that match the character they rp. Leveling isn't bad, just unbalanced at the time because of many reasons.

As to this whole thing about Lolitra's house, yes it was her house first, however remember that firstly your dealing with a goverment. They said that she didn't pay taxes, you said she was never given any taxes or that she has payed her taxes, it doesn't matter. Fact is RPLY a goverment has the right to claim the house, even under what you would rply say is a bad excuse. If Lolitra lost her home then that would be something to add to her rp, not a reason to complain. Possibly she start speaking to people about the unjustness of Ylikuam. Maybe she might start to further herself from their goverment, maybe it could effect your own characters as well. I was using an alt while watching the scene and I must say that when Talad gave you an rp reason many there responded oocly instead of icly. All that happened was ooc complaints instead of taking what he said as an IC challenge. If your character decides to believe that goverment is corrupt all more power to her, its something that would be reflected by an IC happening.

When it comes to devs playing there own game more it is true. However do you expect a high priest of talad to really care about whoever lived in that house? I doubt that someone (who rped to be close to the octarch) would even know many in Hydlaa. Same for the octarch if he/she were to appear. I doubt an octarch would care much, maybe not even knowing any of the citizens in Hydlaa. Its common for rulers to not know their own people.

In the end Lolitra got her house so I'd take that as a win and not a loss to complain about 

[Draklar]

This statement if any is true. I don't feel the reason why is because it lacks the features needed for rping (though it does). I think its because it has the features needed for powerleveling. Even with more rping features you will still run into the same problems as long as powerleveling is possible. How many powerlevelers are going to suddenly become merchants just because there is a better system for it? How many merchants are still going to be uber warriors?

Very true.

On the other matter, I think some people are missing the point if any other house was set for auctioning, the purrty people would still have to *imagine* that the house belongs to them. Now it's theirs. For real. They can walk inside. Would it be better if only other houses could be bought, while this one remained imaginary?
Or maybe the house should be given for free? Surely this wouldn't spawn even more complaints from people who may find that unfair.

[Giraut Mawhrin]

I think this roleplay vs. powerlevelling argument is a typical example of a problem everybody understands backward.

The problem is this: is the game meant to become a game friendly to people who purely RP, or a game friendly to people who like to work their butts off to improve their characters? the devs have answered this long ago: they do not like people who work their butts off. "They're all in it for the money" is what I heard some say.

Ok, so the game is meant to be a pure RP game. Fair enough, if that's what the designers want, after all it's their game. With that assumption, those who like to amass tons of trias and weapons and skills just for the sake of it can get stuffed and that's fine.

So what do we do in a pure RP game? hmm let's see, why wouldn't I create a newspaper for example (let's call it the Yliakum Herald for no particular reason)? That's pure RP right? well, I need some money to buy books before I can sell them. I need to pay article writers, paperboys. I need money for the contest. Got the drift? I need money. Where do I find money? nowhere easily, because the devs don't like those who make money. In case you wondered, I started the Herald with pre-goldmine-neutering money, and I lost over 100K in the venture. If you think Cila makes a pretty buck out of it now, you're wrong. He works too much for what he'll ever get. There's a RPer for you: he works for free, doesn't try to max his stats. And yet he needs money.

Another example: let's say I want to RP a dark, shadowy fighter. I want to be a lone hunter who prowls the great outdoors and kills just for fun. From time to time I come to town and walk around slowly amongst frightened people with my body armor covered in dried up blood. Body armor you say? 22K for the new (very nice, by the way) heavy armor set. Not to mention actual fighting skills. Oh well, I guess I'll have to mine for the next 5 decades before RPing a lone hunter then.

Okay, so the fighter is out. How about a musician? I'll be an artist, a pan flute player, concerned with the art and nothing more. And it's great because I got this pan flute from a quest and that's free. Oops, too bad, the pan flute doesn't play anything anyway (but I'll grant you, the game is far from finished). I could just /say lala-dilala perhaps... nah...

I'll be a crafter then. Someone who creates beautiful swords out of raw steel, with unmatched skills to make objects people admire. Skill? oops, costs money. And people will never buy my swords, since they don't have enough money either.

Crafter is out then. What sort of person are we left with to RP? someone who doesn't need money obviously. Someone who doesn't need too many skills either, since it takes money to train. I guess a beggar? well, you'd be right: this is the best RP I've seen so far, namely Eurac the dwarf, who incidentally told me he was getting tired of spending hours walking around Harnquist's asking for a few coin. Surprise surprise...

I know what people will say: do quests! ok, I recently picked up a certain quest and the NPC asked 50K! gasp!... That's a long time mining to finish the quest. Not to mention certain other quests where you end up paying 200 here, 400 there, and those that require you to kill Ulbernauts that are unkillable without skills you have to pay for. And gee, even for "free" quests, do I really want to spend my time in-game talking to a broken AI? Not really, I want to RP with other people.

My point, if you didn't get it, is that even people who like pure RP need to develop their characters, and that takes money in the current gaming system. Heck, even in pen-and-paper RPGs players need to develop their characters. Unless of course money is taken out of the equation entirely, and then there's no difference between advanced players and newbies apart sheer imagination, and even then, since there's not remotely enough objects to develop a role with, it would get boring real quick...

What I'm trying to say, devs, is that yes, your work is highly appreciated, but the way the game works right now, by favoring RP over PL, you end up killing both. You don't seem to realize that and it's maddening. Why not simply accept that some people will get filthy rich and powerful quickly (oh the horror!) so that those who want to RP can do so as well? and quite frankly, while you seem to dislike PLers with all your heart, what do they do in-game that's so wrong? after all, it's someone with a pile of money who bought the house, isn't it? The house wouldn't have sold 6 months from now when everybody will be broke.

I think this is what people are constantly trying to tell you, that you take for bitching and criticism. We all love PS, otherwise we wouldn't be playing, so we're all grateful to all of you for what your hard work, but I reckon there are only so many misguided "adjustments" you can do to the game before you drive people away and end up with a wasteland instead of a thriving community.

[Donari Tyndale]

Wow....I am truly amazed this did not turn into a flaming thread, but instead lots of good things were mentioned. There is only one thing I need to make clear. For me, there is a difference between being a miner and a powerleveller. The latter one acts like the three apes -hear nothing, see nothing, say nothing-. He does not roleplay his character in any way, the only thing he does is hitting a shortcut and selling his ores to Harnquist. There is nothing to critize in roleplaying a miner, however, you really need to roleplay ithe character.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

I have no problem with plers

Or rp junkies.

one problem i see is that some people take pling to be anything other than sitting around pretending BS off the top of their heads, if you want to do that go back to mushes or muds or PnP.

My favorite character are the ones who roleplay with game mechanics to support their rp

second favorite is rpers who play make believe but do it well and do not hate on others for pursuing the game in a different way

my third favorite is plers who do not interrupt other people's rps or bully people.

I dislike rpers who are snobby or drive new players from the game.

I dislike plers who make rping hard for those who enjoy roleplaying.

if the paper costs more to make, charge more, it is that simple.

People need money, ok, but they do not need 200k a day.

donari many of those are probably bots.

[Waylander]

Disclaimer:  I am actually Xillix's favourite kind of player.  He just doesn't want to say it


@Giraut: Devs want a happy medium, neither those who pretend everything nor those who think they know somebodies name because it's on top of their head, are the players devs want to get.

The simple fact is that we have combat, mining and a little bit of crafting ingame, the devs have a long way to go.  Over time I'm sure there will be ways of earning tria and PP suitable to everybody's taste. 

[Giraut Mawhrin]

if the paper costs more to make, charge more, it is that simple.

What you don't seem to understand is that people have less and less money thanks to the mine adjustments. Charge more => sell less => eventually stop the paper business because it's just not worth the effort => one less RP activity. Same for crafters.

It's like in real-life you know: when people don't have money, they don't buy, and in the game, that kills activities that support roleplay. This is my whole point.

People need money, ok, but they do not need 200k a day.

People make 200K a day? so what? let them do it: they'll max out in no time, and then they'll get bored and go away. Those who remain in the game will be those who have a "life" in-game, so to speak.

You have this epidermic reaction when people make too much money for some reason. You know, in 1917, a bunch of folks in Russia decided rich people shouldn't be rich, and they ended up making everybody else miserable for decades. Let Planeshift PLers have all the money they want, they'll just exhaust the game, miss the point of RPing and they'll go away on their own. What's the big deal really?

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

when there is too much money people whine, when we change it people whine.

lol, there is no winning with you people, i give up.

[Dihenis]

Don't worry Xillix people just like to complain, what other reason do you have for these forums? 

its just training that i see as a problem, its such a big money sink that people use up so much money in that, that people like Giraut can't make enough money selling things to other players, because they are busy training so then he can't train himself, which discourages him about his roleplays and then he stops with them.
as Giraut said, that would also make the power levelers leave sooner because they have this super powerful character and nothing to do with it.

[Nikodemus]

Giraut Mawhrin, you exaggerate a bit.
I can't be sure what Draklar or others want exactly. But lets take one thing as example: I also do agree that there are features, which are breaking RPing by supporting PLing and not RPing at the same time. And it is these features, which need to go out and be replaced with others...
So that what you say can make sense:

Another example: let's say I want to RP a dark, shadowy fighter. I want to be a lone hunter who prowls the great outdoors and kills just for fun. From time to time I come to town and walk around slowly amongst frightened people with my body armor covered in dried up blood. Body armor you say? 22K for the new (very nice, by the way) heavy armor set. Not to mention actual fighting skills. Oh well, I guess I'll have to mine for the next 5 decades before RPing a lone hunter then.

A hunter, who track and kills his prey, bring the skins to town and make a living from it. Will that make sense in PS? Not really. It could be possible and you could say it is now... if you ignore few things.
It is not worth at all killing these wild creatures, coz you will do far better mass killing rogues or gladiators and selling their stuff to smiths, which are just near. There is no point to be a lone hunter. You can RP that, but you will loose the spirit of such an RP very fast. And not only because of that, but because you will soon realise that killing 1-3 beasts max and the going back to town to sell the skins makes no sense, because you can kill 100 of them and then go back to town and repeat^^ - Now, this is no longer a hunter, but a butcher, i don't know, it is hard for me to find the right word, because such profession has no place in our real reality, from which the profession "hunter is originating.

I don't think anyone is stopping you from making money, we just want this to be more real, because if it isn't, you can't RP half of this what you should, because it makes no sense.
If you complain at what people say there and use term "Pure RP" this makes one to think, that you vaue PLing a lot, and you need it to be efficient and not being too hard (in reletion to some common sense we bring from other games) . It would be fine if not that, that by supporting such behaviour, you are screwing RP of others, by just being there and making professions of other people pointless.

In the end, i'm not saying i want to ban PLing. I do enjoy training my skills and earning tria. Who doesn't want to be at least a bit rich by what he do? I do want though that the PLing be happening by the way the RP, not the other side. I think it is possible in real envitoment, not corrupted by gaming artifacts.
So yeah, you are going to level up less efficient... but once it would be not possible to level up more efficiently, the resourcess needed to skill up would be lower too.

Now someone who don't know what the hell i'm talking about may need an example, so i try to put it short.
We don't go in the wild or to arena, to kill respawning enemies. But we go there and on arena, we are meeted for a  fight, for money. No looting. It makes no sense in arena where gladiators fight for fame and honor and alike.
In the wild we track to finally find and kill the prey we can take valuable things from it. A fur, skin, how many of they you can wear and bring to town at the same time? 5 max i think. So it is that many beasts you kill, no mass killing, because going back to town takes time.
Who knows, maybe rogues ambush you and you have to defend yourself and if you win, you can loot their stuff.
There is no calculating and knowing exactly which NPCs of the same kind are how strong, you can ever know. Fighting is dangerous, really!
The examples go on and there is one point: So that fighting things stops being economical calculation and starts a real profession and style of RP life.

[Karyuu]

Giraut Mawhrin: What you don't seem to understand is that in Yliakum there is a certain amount of money that different "classes" make and a certain amount of money that is supposed to go around the world. "Let them keep their 200k a day" is just as ridiculous as telling Xillix to let people roleplay things that would never be seen on all the levels. A healthy, trained Ptero is supposedly 45,000 tria total - that's how the world works. That's what Xillix, Xordan, and others are building towards. And to tell them to quit doing their job doesn't many any sense. You think leaving all this tria in the world is balancing? I admit it's a very touchy subject these days, but you're not giving us time to implement anything without drowning us in complaints. "Hold on, this is step 1!" brings cries of "Fix it now!" or "Change it back!" or "You don't know what you're doing!" Nor will we take any prophesying about the community becoming a wasteland or this game dying seriously - because I personally have been hearing this since three years ago, about anything from the very introduction of combat to restructuring our GM team. So please refrain from trying to scare us.

Yes, training is a big money sink. However, I've already posted that I think lowering the costs is a great idea, Jeraphon, agreed, and mentioned Xillix might be on the same page. I did mention we are far from done working on this.

Please, just don't expect a finished perfect system within a matter of weeks, because it's not going to happen. Xordan and TomT have been doing a lot of really great thinking on the economy and best ways to manage this and that, Xillix and Jeraphon are pondering it with every quest reward they give, we've had many internal ideas floating around about changing the PP system to let training make more sense, etc.

What do you wish to tell us that we don't already know and haven't taken into consideration?