Anti-Powerleveler Idea

[theirah]

I think you brought up some good points, durwyn. Rpers and "power levelers" need to find some way to connect. I still dont know what is bad about trying to make yourself as powerful as you can be though. In real life, the reason we arent perfect at everything is because we dont have enough time to perfect everything in the world. in games, being perfect, at least in theory, is possible, and that is what drives people to train to max. There are very few people who can actually max everything before they become bored, so I dont see why levels are bad either. it gives you a way of measuring how good you are. as for changing the numbers into poor, common, standard, and so on, it would still be the same thing. they would train to become elite.

[Feline Prince]

Except when we are talking about numbers the PLAYER is training to be the best in game. If someone says they are elite it's very easy to assume they are IC and the CHARACTER is trying to be the best in Yilakum. If anything it is a soft way of forcing people to talk ICly to an extent. Obviously it doesn't stop the people who miss the idea completely talking about their Xbox ingame but it would be a start.

[theirah]

Perhaps try to define role-playing in-game somewhere, where everyone would see it, because some people just dont know what counts as role-playing. it is a different world, after all, and stuff like magic exists. In real life, there are levels to define where people are at, for example, being in Spanish 1, or having a 3.8 GPA, or something. I once accepted levels as just something everyone knew and was natural in the world. Only one person bothered to tell me it was not IC.

[Duraza]

Perhaps try to define role-playing in-game somewhere, where everyone would see it, because some people just dont know what counts as role-playing. it is a different world, after all, and stuff like magic exists. In real life, there are levels to define where people are at, for example, being in Spanish 1, or having a 3.8 GPA, or something. I once accepted levels as just something everyone knew and was natural in the world. Only one person bothered to tell me it was not IC.

While there are levels and things like that in real life no one walks around saying "I'm a level 10 police officer." That would be the equivalent of saying "I'm a level 10 miner." RP is suposed to be "realistic" (as in sounding real within the games own settings) so using the numbers really would not promote rp since you don't hear people in real life say those things.

If, possibly, you were in a swordsman school and the teachers ranked you by a level then you'd have a perfectly IC reason to say "I'm a level 10 swordsman" yet it wouldn't be the same as if you were just refering to the OOC stats. If you think about it, in real life one can not just pull up a tab and look at all their skills to see what "level" they are in certain things  .

[theirah]

perhaps create a rating system then? if you want to delete the numbers, perhaps have a "test" your character can take to find out what level they would be classified as. from there, it is just memory, like in real life.

[saladasalad]

Hmm it would seem the power levelers are common in real life. All you have to do is look at the muscle head who spends six hours a day weight training in the gym to try to be the next Mr. Universe or the musician that spend 10 hours in the studio practicing various instruments. The difference with the in-game power levelers is that in real life there is enough time for the muscle head to master an instrument or the musician  solve Fermi's Last Theorem or whatever combination you like. Certainly such a renaissance man type is possible in real life and is exceptional but characters in the game are supposed to be exceptional to begin with.

there are people who want to be the best at everything in real life, you know.

This was exactly my point. I might not have made that very clear at the time though As long as the player isn't speaking OOC about levels [outside of brackets] then I don't see why certain people feel the need to denigrate these players.

perhaps create a rating system then? if you want to delete the numbers, perhaps have a "test" your character can take to find out what level they would be classified as. from there, it is just memory, like in real life.

I actually think this is a really interesting idea. It doesn't take much away from either "side" and it would add a unique element to the game.

[bilbous]

Some people are very conscious of their status. It would not be surprising to hear someone say "I have been a policeman for 15 years, the last seven as Captain of the swat team. As far as the martial arts go they definitely have levels, Judo has white, yellow, green, on up to black belt and beyond. Piano has conservatory levels and unions have seniority. The names may differ but they are there and bandied about within their respective communities. Everyone likes to be able to define themselves within the pecking order.

The levels in the game represent specific achievements and changing the terminology may sound better but will not change anything else. People may also revert to the old terminology to further pinpoint their place. You can always count or estimate the number of times you level up from the last descriptive change, so: I have leveled five times since I became apprentice so that would make me about 15th level. I am not suggesting that it should not be attempted just that ultimately some people will never completely adopt it. In a way you will be making it more apparent as people will want to know how long until they achieve the next descriptive level.

 

[Under the moon]

The answer to that is simple, bilbous. Replace the ladder-type leveling system with a ramp system.

In the ladder, your skill goes up every time you hit a 'level', thus making it easy to count even with hidden numbers.

A ramp system eliminates levels all together, simply adding more skill as you play. If the numbers are hidden in this system, the only way you know how skilled you are is to actually go out an use it. You could, of course, test your skill to see what 'level' you are at. Examples would be testing against a trainer (for a fee), lifting official size stones (for a fee), presenting your magic before a master mage (for a fee), or bringing one of you cooked dishes to a chef (for a fee). These would give you an official ‘You are this level’ badge, belt, award, or whatever item that would affect other parts of the game (such as certain higher level trainers only training those with awarded ‘levels‘). But, you would not have to test it you did not wish.

I will use your own examples. A person who practices Judo outside of official training will have no belt until judges give it to him. The self-taught pianist will have no level until someone else recognizes it, and gives them a note. Seniority in a Union has nothing to do with skill, as many people can attest to, so that is a bad example.

[Unnamed_Source]

Seniority in a Union has nothing to do with skill, as many people can attest to, so that is a bad example.

No skill you say?? Well that just about makes Don Guido mad! .. What if I just let Vinnie and the boys take you for a ride out in the country.. don't bother pack'n nut'n either, you won't be stay'n long...

[bilbous]

Union seniority has nothing to do with skill but it does have a fair bit to do with job description and duties. Different duties require different skills to perform. A pianist who can perform flawlessly the examination program for a given level can claim the ability regardless of paying the fees and taking the exam. Certainly most interest societies whatever their form whether it be a Conservatory, a Dojo or a Brotherhood, etc. have the ladder type. I suggest it is the ability that is important not the recognition except for Union which as you say are somewhat different.

In your chef example I would judge my level by the menu items I could prepare regardless of how they came out, just so long as they were edible. Presumably one of the skills in that example would be specific recipes that you would suddenly somehow know. Would you, rather, start off being able to learn any recipe and the ramp effect would determine what level of complexity you could follow? What would happen if you just took a bunch of ingredients and started experimenting by taste? and whose taste will be the determinant factor? If I like my soup better than the soup Chef Hoity Toity makes with the same ingredient list is his still better? Many such skills are pretty subjective when you get right down to it. Is this painting worth nearly 2 million dollars?

Well I've lost my train of thought so I'll leave it at that.
 

[Feline Prince]

I play the guitar and hockey. I have no idea what 'Level' I am in either.

Skills aren't THAT subjective. A good swords man will defeat his opponent, a good chef will have his food purchased regularly and a good artist will have his picture bought for 2 million dollars. That's not to say its a good piece of art, but they are a good artist.

[Quq Leque]

Skills aren't THAT subjective. A good swords man will defeat his opponent, a good chef will have his food purchased regularly and a good artist will have his picture bought for 2 million dollars. That's not to say its a good piece of art, but they are a good artist.

so does an average swordsman who is very strong and who has finest swords defeat a expert swordsman with normal swords who has average strength? Settings will get pretty complex with multiple variables, its not that black and white. not in life, not IG

[Sangwa]

The only numbers I'd get rid of are the Progression Points, and that would sure be anti-powerleveling. But we've been there already. Which sure as hell doesn't mean I won't take every chance I get to criticize it. .

Anyway, I think it'd be nice if someone with metallurgy that trains enough suddenly think "I might be able to attempt melting gold now, I think I got it." Rather than the player thinking "Yes, my character is level 20, let's get rich." Or in the example of cooking, a cook that suddenly realizes that there's a trick to mixing ingredients and so he can try it with that recipe he never got right. I also think that you should be able to attempt at any recipe, though your results would be dreadful if you didn't have the skill required. There are many games with that system. Want to melt gold ore without knowing how it's done? There you go, a fresh nice, useless lump of metal for you. Now get to working with less complex materials.
I also judge it better to have a character think "I can kill a Trepor with a hit!" rather than a player bragging that his character does 400 damage.

How could this be done? Just take out the numbers. What would it mean? That you'd have to try things out each time you believe your skill has evolved. "And what does that mean?" That people will be forced into the realistic attempt method rather than the "that player told me" method.
I don't see anything wrong with that. Good thinking Feline Prince.

In Martial Arts people that wear the same belt might have different skill levels. In PS people of the same rank have exactly the same skill. I don't think comparing these makes much sense.

Still, there's nothing too wrong with using numbers. Numbers are references for players to use while they're roleplaying their character, they're useful for you, so you know how your character is faring in a certain skill and if you should rise it more or keep it like that to have it be the way you want. He's right though, it would add to the "immersible environment" thingy, though it could make life for players a little harder.

Variables are there anyway, without numbers or not. I don't get it Quq Leque.

[bilbous]

As far as I can tell the way the numbers get used in conversation is just a short-hand way of defining your place in the hierarchy. Certainly you can remove them from view but everything in computers is numbers so you cannot remove them completely. You can make it unwieldy to use them, but people will likely find some equally unpalatable way of marking their place if you do. People like order and will strive to show it whatever you do.

Part of the problem that seems to be  expressed by the 'pro-obscurity' crew is that they cannot live with the dual nature of the character, or rather would prefer it did not show up in the game. This is understandable. What I mean by the dual nature is the character is also the player, the two have different viewpoints. What I think is needed is an education campaign to help the players not to pollute the main with their viewpoint instead of a campaign to make it impossible to know their place in the game. Like any other voluntary campaign it will not be easy.

[Quq Leque]

well yeah you could link numbers to a skill 'tag' like sword skill 1-20 being 'beginner swordsman' but you need a system where you hit a lot harder ar '20' beginner swordsman then you did at '1' beginner swordsman or training will seem to have no affect untill all of a sudden you're '21' and an advanced swordsman. For people saying they're a 'beginner swordsman' it could then however either mean they get killed by easy rogues (1) or that they can kill tefusang (20).

Not that it's a problem, just tricky to work out is what i'm saying. I don't like numbers either.