A sense of direction

[Nikodemus]

I'm glad the there is mention of quadrants already, or rather 'octants',

You are refering to my hexans? ;P I just wonder where from you got the 'octans' ;>

As far as the light from the crystal is concerned, i'd expect that a crystal this large would have a lot of internal reflection/refraction going on, and this would probably mean that not only would the light be diffuse and non-directional, but would probably be subject to transmission delays, and this would also explain why the crystal is never truly dark, even at night.

Do you know what is lightspeed, fiber wire and why transmissions through it are so fast? ;P

Azure Sun shine at night, because it has properties of light accumulation. It accumulate at the day and releases at night.

since regardless of the fact it's a medieval fantasy setting, the science still has to work, for me anyway. 

I like ya.

[evil scotsman]

you are refering to my hexans? ;P I just wonder where from you got the 'octans' ;>

well i assume hexans refers to the six divisions you proposed, however Jeraphon hinted that eight divisions were already a reality although not noticeable in game yet, hence octans

Do you know what is lightspeed, fiber wire and why transmissions through it are so fast? ;P

yes, the speed of light in a vacum is 299792458 metres per second, and that fibre optics use fast laser diodes for high speed data transmission, however in a hypercomplex crystalline structure such as the azure sun, who knows what reflections and refractions of the incoming light may do, there may indeed be a certain amount of light accumulation, which implies a delay in the transmission of light from surface to yliakum.

I'm not saying it's perfect science, since the refractive index of the crystal is unknown it can do anything settings says it can do, I was just trying to shed a little light on the subject

since regardless of the fact it's a medieval fantasy setting, the science still has to work, for me anyway. 

I like ya.

Thank you, and for the other matter, it's appreciated 

[Jeraphon]

So what happens to those who venture into the stone labyrinths? Is going back to the wall wallward or edgeward?

[Dihenis]

I thought no one actualy knew about where anything really was in the labryinth, and most of it was just wandering around. then you wouldn't have to worry about wallward/edgeward stuff.

[Nikodemus]

When they walk there Jeraphon, they get lost ;P Maybe thats why rarely anyone is coming back

Thogh of course the polar coords system would expand there just fine. In theory, because it would be hard to measure it there.
Unless the compas with arrow showing the crystal would come to existance. Some other time i was speculating with someone that it could have dead zones (not work) in areas of the libirynth and the furher from the Crystal, the worse it gets.

And the directions like edgeward would still make sense. If i was lost there, maybe i would even start worship talad and pray that i walk in the edgeward direction ;P and end on the right height too xD

[theirah]

is there some magnetic pole in the stalagtite?

I was just thinking, if there was something that was attacted to the tip of the stalactite, you would be able to tell where you were by the angle of a needle with some of that material on the end

[Pizzasgood]

however in a hypercomplex crystalline structure such as the azure sun, who knows what reflections and refractions of the incoming light may do, there may indeed be a certain amount of light accumulation, which implies a delay in the transmission of light from surface to yliakum.

I don't know about crystals, but I do know it takes a long time for light to get out of the sun:

Estimates of the "photon travel time" range from as much as 50 million years[12] to as little as 17,000 years.

That's to cover a displacement of only 6.955×10^8 m.  Once out of the Sun itself, it covers the 1.5 x10^11 m between the sun and the Earth in about eight minutes, which is about 4000 times as far.

I doubt the crystal would hold light up for years, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did delay light for hours or so.  And if it didn't delay all light, that would explain the phenomena we experience.  I don't think it's very likely though.

Alternately, there could be a large number of stars, very bright moons, or glowing materials (magma, radioactive rocks, mushrooms, etc) providing light for the crystal.  And of course, it's magic, so the dim light could just be that magic glow.  Personally, I find these explanations more believable than the light delay.

Speaking of magic, if it did delay light, and delayed it long enough (like, for thousands of years) it would gradually collect a huge amount of energy that's bouncing around inside.  That could be the source for its magic.

is there some magnetic pole in the stalagtite?

I was just thinking, if there was something that was attacted to the tip of the stalactite, you would be able to tell where you were by the angle of a needle with some of that material on the end

That would be cool.  If you knew either your elevation or the distance to the axis of the stalactite, you'd be able to calculate the other.  In general, elevation would be the known factor due to the different levels.  So it would be relatively easy for the crafter to give it special notches or markings to show the distances based on which level you're on (cheap or compact models could just have the markings for a single level).

You could also do the same thing if it pointed to the Azure Sun rather than the tip.  In that case, you could actually estimate your distance without any instruments, simply by glancing up to see what angle the sun's at.  Similar to how we can look at the sun to see the time.  In fact, they could also set up gauges using shadows to make calculations.  You take a vertical object and compare it's height to the length of it's shadow.  arctan(height_of_object/length_of_shadow)=angle_of_sun=theta.  Then, take your vertical distance from the sun (based on which level you're on) and call that E.  We'll call the distance from the stalactite's axis R.  R=E/tan(theta).  So that means, R=E/(height/length), therefor R=E*length_of_shadow/height_of_object.

This is a simple calculation that even the uneducated people would be able to do.  It takes a little trigonometry to derive that forumla, but only simple algebra to compute.  And the only things you need to know are E and the ratio of the shadow to the height.  You don't even need the actual numbers for the shadow and height!  If the shadow is twice as long, your position is E*2.  If it's half as long, it's E/2.  And E only changes if your elevation changes, mainly if you climb a mountain or change levels.

[LARAGORN]

So what happens to those who venture into the stone labyrinths? Is going back to the wall wallward or edgeward?

A simple fix for this issue would be BWW (Beyond WallWard), anything past the mapped walls of the stalagtite would have this in the coordinates.

[Raa]

I've got an idea!!!111!@1 How about the compasses are made of glass balls, and inside of them is a little piece of rock or something that's attracted to the Crystal. It wouldn't work out that well on any of the lower levels, but it'd be very useful if you were on the uppermost level. On the glass could be inscriptions of directions and etc. And then, at the bottom, it would say Made in Mars by Raa Incorporated... 

[Nikodemus]

Yeah, all you need is angle and your actual height to determine the radius. And you don't even need a tool, which will show the angle. You can calculate it with use of a stick.
That's theory only,
because you actually don't know your height. Because each Yliakum isn't flat like a CD plate (or DVD these times x]). Not only it has hills, but it has shape of a upside-down cone, without its bottom and very sharp angle (not 25^o as the library book suggests ;P, what is confirmed bug btw), ange of maybe 5^o ?

Saying it, the highest and lowest points of each level as an Interval may be "commonly" known and you can eighter try to gues your actual height as shorter Interval or use the wider Interval and thus calculate the radius as an Interval too.


Speaking about mathematics, you are not first to find all this out Pizzasgood ;P
And the reason why it would be good to have second compas arrow showng the north pole (which hopefully exists, because the world we are in have magnetic field, what isn't sure!), the reason is that we can find out the angle of our polar coods system.

So with such a compas you find your ~EXACT position in Yliakum isn't it nice and makes our real world compas kind of stupid looking?

[Pizzasgood]

I forgot there's a slope.  I did say it would be an estimate though, and over long distances.  More like "oh, I see I'm halfway through my long voyage" than "hmm... the buried treasure should be two point five feet to my left."  Just like how I can't look at the sun and tell the time to the minute, but I can tell that it's around five or so.

Since for precision you'll need to know actual distances, perhaps the crystal-seeking-needle can also display magnitude, as in, the closer you are to the Azure Sun, the stronger the needle glows.  Then you've got the angle and the hypotenuse, which will give you both elevation and radius.  You might want to add something to help level it too, or you won't get the right angle.  A weighted string would be cheapest, but you could also use a spell or a "bubble-in-a-tube".

And yeah, a traditional compass added in to the mix would give you exact position.  I was originally going to say something like, "Then tack on a traditional compass..." but it must have gotten lost when I was restructuring the post.

They are very cool compasses though, with all the pressure sensing and needles and leveling.  Probably ridiculously expensive too.  Thus why I keep coming back to ways to estimate without devices.

[Erisnas]

Personally, I believe that if you are looking for directions you should use the 6 Bronze door regions.  They go all across the upper level of Yliakum and are as far as I know, fairly evenly spaced.  Having a 6 point compass may take a while to get use to but would be interesting, plus you would always know where the BDs were!  If not I suppose the crystal would have some function that could be incorporated into a compass.

[Nikodemus]

Since for precision you'll need to know actual distances, perhaps the crystal-seeking-needle can also display magnitude, as in, the closer you are to the Azure Sun, the stronger the needle glows.  Then you've got the angle and the hypotenuse, which will give you both elevation and radius.  You might want to add something to help level it too, or you won't get the right angle.  A weighted string would be cheapest, but you could also use a spell or a "bubble-in-a-tube".

I wonder on that paragraph.
AFAIK you need to know only one distance (height to crystal) and if it is precise, you know your posiotion preciselly, or only the radius of your position.
I also don't see what you mean by the crystal-seeking-needle, what magintude it is going to show and how? Also a strength of a glow isn't a very good way of measuring. A light souce is good only for binary measure. (glowing -1- working, not glowing -0- not working. There is no semi glow)
Ok, if by the strength of the glow you could say the hypotenuse, then you have both radius and height. But as i explained above, you can't.
And for positioning the tool ~ideally horizontal the "bubble-in-a-tube" would do just fine, in fact two of these.

Ok, the tool is getting really expensive ;P But that is for educated cartographer or just someone rich. For normal people the tool may be simple, a bit unprecise because of that. Although i'm too lazy to calculate the possible Interval of error, i don't expect it to be high. Maybe you will? ;P

Btw, calculating angles into normal numbers isn't that easy without calculator ;P and so isn't the th root of a number ;P
Although people do calculate these somehow, they don't teach us this comonly anymore, so i can't say how. I only except this to be a bit time taking.
It is possible to use tables of pre calculated values, what works quite well. But it is another thing you have to own to know your position.

[Pizzasgood]

I was being stupid when I said it should glow.  Something more like one of those simple rubberband force meters used in physics classes would work better: http://www.practicalphysics.org/imageLibrary/jpeg200/317.jpg  Except much smaller, and hooked up to some pivots so one end can point in a full hemisphere (you'd only need a full sphere if you plan to go above the sun, but at that point, the pointing device might not even point correctly anymore).

EDIT:  Yeah, it would need two leveling tubes.  I forgot that it could be tilted in the other direction.  Only if you used tubes though.  You could make a slightly curved "button" shape, with a circle or spot in the center.  Then the bubble would be in the circle when level, and move any other time.

Okay, now let's see if I can explain the whole mechanism.

Assuming there's a horizontal magnetic field, you have a magnetic compass.  That doesn't need explanation.  It's needle is the M-needle.  You have another needle that points to the tip of the Azure Sun.  The C-needle.  It's attracted to the crystal strongly enough that you could fashion a device to measure how hard it's attracted (force would weaken with distance).  That would allow you to calculate the distance to the tip, which is your hypotenuse.  The user wouldn't need to calculate it, only the crafter, who would add notches saying, "50 km", "60 km", etc.  There's also a leveling device to make sure the angles are correct.

To determine your angle around the axis of the stalactite, you'd compare the angle of the M-needle and the C-needle.  One end of the C-needle will be low (unless you're level with the crystal), so it would point to an angle.  Various means could be used to make reading it easier, even having a second C-needle that doesn't point up at all, only towards the axis, or just having an adjustable dial that you'd point toward the crystal via sight, similar to the mechanism on our compasses.

To determine the angle to the crystal, you check the angle of the C-needle.  Simple enough.

To determine your hypotenuse, you use the magnitude element of the C-needle, which would be pre-marked like a ruler or scale.

Then you get to do the math, which wouldn't be near as easy as a simple estimation based on eyeballing the sun, knowing the approximate elevation, and guessing your radial position based on walls, ceiling, or opposite side.  For this device, you'd definitely need to be one of the educated.  Though for just a coordinate system, if you based it off the tip of the crystal, you wouldn't need any calculations (other than subtraction between M-needle and C-needle) to get your actual coordinates, just to translate them into distances.  But maybe if you grew up using this system, it wouldn't be so bad to estimate.  We're used to cartesian coordinates because that's what we've always used.  And basic conversion factors for general intervals might be commonly known (kinda like how some people can actually use English units.  I just use feet, miles, and pounds.  Anything else is metric).  Especially within a certain region.  So people on the first level might know approximately how far a degree is at the edge, and at every 1/10 of the way back to the wall or so.  Then just estimate within them.  Again, that wouldn't yield precise measurements or anything.  Just trying to emphasize that it could be possible for the laykran to have a basic idea of distances expressed using a polar coordinate system, especially in his region.


But that's just a "simple" version of the compass, using minimal magic and gadgetry.  If I sat down and thought about it, I could probably come up with a machine that would do most of the work automatically with minimal magic (mainly to counter friction and increase attractive forces).  I feel safe in saying a needle can be fashioned that would point to the crystal, but otherwise, you could get away with "pointers" and various methods of alignment (it's a light source, so it wouldn't be too hard with the right equipment).  In that case, distance would be the trickier part.  Depending on the precision of your parts and alignment, maybe you could set up two separate "pointing" devices and triangulate it.

Also, I haven't worked out any of the actual numbers to see how much precision we'd actually need for these calculations.  It may be that you'd need a huge compass to get a close enough reading.  I'd have to dig up the dimensions of the cavern and crunch a couple numbers, but I'm too busy right now.  The trickiest part, again, would be the distance mechanism.  You'd need enough attraction to see a difference, but not so much that it get's yanked out of your hand, and also not so much that traveling a small distance uses up all the "travel" in it.  Maybe it would be better to just add a separate magic-field-magnitude sensor that works via other means than attraction.  I think that's why I originally said glowing, but that isn't precise enough.

Even if it turned out a pocket device wouldn't work, the more eccentric people might still have built gigantic devices in the name of science.  Or even a Stonehenge type deal by the less modern types (everyone knows Stonehenge was originally built as a gigantic polar-coordinate uber-compass by people suffering from PlaneShift withdrawal during a server outage)

Maybe if I get bored on my coming 4-day weekend I'll do all that, and maybe even dig out Blender or a cad program to see if I could model the device.  That could take a while though, but it would be pretty fun, and worthy of a student in my engineering heavy college.  Actually, creating blueprints for an ubercompass that would only work in a video game world miles underground inside a giant stalactite probably wouldn't even be considered strange here.  Maybe a little obsessive, and I guess the fact that the video game isn't Halo or WOW might be considered strange, but not by much.

[Pizzasgood]

I just realized something pretty cool.  Take the compass described above, but instead of the M-needle, make it an M-disk with angle marks labeled on it.  Like one of these http://www.navis.gr/navaids/images/compass.jpg
For one thing (unrelated to the cool thing), this way the "back" end of the C-needle (the end pointing away from the crystal) would point at the actual angle, since the angle marks would always be oriented correctly due to it's pointing north.

Now, for the cool part.  Take a top-down map of Yliakum, projected so that it looks like if you went to the tip of the crystal and took a picture of everything below (as in, things that are at high elevations are closer to the edge of the map, low things toward the center, so a tall perfectly vertical tower would seem to move outwards toward the top.  Basically, it's a perspective thing).  Stick that map on the M-disk, oriented so north matches north.

That accomplishes two things.  The first is that you have a "permanently" oriented map of Yliakum.  Not amazing by itself.  But the second thing is that if you have the C-needle above the M-disk, only just high enough for the back-end of the needle to not touch when it's pointing directly up, then the back end of the needle will point at your location.

Well, if you're on the ground it will.  If you're in the air, it will still point at you, if you visualize yourself projected into the map.  There would also be issues if your not in line-of-site of the sun, in which case the object blocking it would cover your location on the map (like a big mountain).

Granted, unless you have a big honking compass, it wouldn't help for short distances, but you could easily see your location on a larger scale.

The other cool thing about this is that you can apply the same concept to make a map viewer.  As in, you input a set of coordinates, and it will point to the location.  You could also run it in reverse:  point it at a location on the map, and it will return the angles.  If you really want to be fancy, you could actually build a 3d model of Yliakum, in which case you could modify things slightly to take into account the distance R from the sun, in which case inputting coordinates would actually give the exact point rather than just pointing.


Also, unlike the compass, the map viewer deal wouldn't care if there's a magnetic system or if things can be attracted to the crystal.  The only thing it depends on is the coordinate system.