Author Topic: Crosh Dunehammer's "Drinks in the Deep" quest  (Read 3464 times)

Ver

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Crosh Dunehammer's "Drinks in the Deep" quest
« on: October 12, 2007, 08:39:06 pm »
Is this quest broken?

I've given the seven drinks to Crosh Dunehammer, and when asked if I knew who "Zak" is, I answered no. Then he mumbles a bit more and and says "I just heard something". He says nothing more. I've tried every answer to this cliffhanger-type statement I could think of, including "what did you hear" and "what is it"? The only answer he recognizes is "no", which just makes him re-loop the same statement.

The quest isn't finished, so there must be something left to do. It seems that this is a case of poor storytelling. I have asked a couple of players how they got through this, and they told me they got stuck at the same part.

Jeraphon

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Re: Crosh Dunehammer's "Drinks in the Deep" quest
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2007, 09:16:45 pm »
Quote
Is this quest broken?

No.

It just requires more thinking than most quests, in that answers were purposely not spoonfed to you.

Ver

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Re: Crosh Dunehammer's "Drinks in the Deep" quest
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2007, 09:28:53 pm »
Quote
It just requires more thinking than most quests, in that answers were purposely not spoonfed to you.

I'm going to tell it like I feel it this time.

You know, Planeshift's quests are unique among MMOs in this way. In other MMOs, the quests have great direction, and the few that you can't figure out can be looked up in a FAQ or strategy guide. In Planeshift, not only do some quests like Crosh's leave you completely clueless with no idea of how to continue, there's also no FAQs.

I'm sorry devs, but if there's no indication whatsoever of how I should answer an NPC from the context of the story, you're practically expecting me to be a superhuman if you think I can somehow solve it on my own.

Jeraphon

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Re: Crosh Dunehammer's "Drinks in the Deep" quest
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2007, 09:45:09 pm »
Boo hoo.

Xillix Queen of Fools

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Re: Crosh Dunehammer's "Drinks in the Deep" quest
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2007, 10:03:29 pm »
What jeraphon is trying to say is . . .

well he said what he meant.

The answer is there for you, read your logs and please do not post the results of solve this for your friends, you CAN solve this ver.

Venae Rell

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Re: Crosh Dunehammer's "Drinks in the Deep" quest
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2007, 12:29:48 am »
And there -is- a guide/FAQ on how to handle the common beginner's errors in quests (and just about anything else in-game) here.    :detective: And here!

Raa

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Re: Crosh Dunehammer's "Drinks in the Deep" quest
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2007, 01:03:50 am »
Did you make sure to actually read what the NPC(s) said?

sxealex

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Re: Crosh Dunehammer's "Drinks in the Deep" quest
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2007, 05:42:52 am »
I'm having a problem with this quest  as well...
I got the gist of it (So I thought) but before i could finish reading i went to click on him and he didn't come
into focus...  So I basically just stepped off the bridge and fell to my death :-).  If anyone can post what he said...
it would be appreciated.  The oddest part is that I don't remember accepting the quest but it is on my list.
O well...
Thanks in advance.

*edit*

Alright... nevermind. I figured it out ... but that was realllllly dumb.  Sorry to whoever was responsible for it.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2007, 04:39:20 pm by neko kyouran »

Mordaan

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Re: Crosh Dunehammer's "Drinks in the Deep" quest
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2007, 04:07:58 pm »
I have to say that was one of the more interesting quests I've done.  Yes, it was a bit frustrating, but in a fun way.  I could see where people might not see it that way.  But that was by far the longest conversation I've ever had with an NPC.   :thumbup:
--Overseer, Explorers Guild.

Nedward Dufflin

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Re: Crosh Dunehammer's "Drinks in the Deep" quest
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2008, 12:18:24 am »
Well, this quest still has problems as written.  Whether or not you should be able to easily figure out what Crosh wants you to say if you reply "No" to his question as to whether you have seen "that creepy fellow that lurks around down there," he should not be clueless if you answer "Yes" because you have, in fact, seen that fellow.  It wasn't until I read a walk-through that I figured out that the required answer was "No" and not merely that Crosh wanted some other affirmative answer instead of "Yes," the creepy fellow's name, etc.  Now, you might prefer to believe that I am simply stupid, but I think the quest could be improved without a lot of effort and condescending crap.

Now, I freely admit that the quest dialogs have been improved over the last couple of years, but there are some things that would help make them better.  It helps to realize the extremely limited vocabulary and recognized phrases complicates things more than they need to be.  Frankly, the original text adventure, The Colossal Cave, back in the 1970's was easier to communicate with than many of the PlaneShift NPCs have been.  Granted, you knew then that you were limited to a typical maximum of two words per statement usually in a verb-object form and PlaneShift tries to provide for "richer" expressions in many cases.  However, the inconsistency is often a problem in it's own right.  So, some suggestions:

If you want players to recite lines in a script, give us a way to learn our lines.  Better yet, don't require players to recite lines in your NPC script just so we can play along in your production.  Let us simply watch if you aren't prepared for reasonable variation in response to your NPC.

If your NPC asks questions that can be answered positively or negatively, have it act appropriately to both responses.  For example, Crosh should not require you to lie just to complete the quest.

If you require specific responses, try to ensure that the specific response can be clearly determined or that it comes from selecting a response from an explicit list.  However, this will always be difficult to get right when the response is not simply "yes," "no," a number, etc.  It is a major pain that some dialogs require a noun in the response with one or more specific adjectives while other dialogs require you to omit any adjectives used by some other NPC in the quest even if those adjectives seem necessary to distinguish from a more generic question or comment (e.g. trying to get the Hydlaa gem cutter to perform a specific service).  If you want to keep the illusion of more open-ended dialogs, then perhaps the server should log responses to non-trivial questions (i.e. "marked" questions of some sort) so that the quest maintainers can see the range of answers given by players.  This would enable the maintainers to ensure that the NPC can accept one of a set of "correct" responses that players are likely to give.  In fact, this feature would be very helpful in those cases where you expect a player to answer a riddle, both to ensure that you credit most, if not all, "correct" responses and to help guide the maintainer in refining the riddle itself when player answers indicate that it may be necessary.

For a game with an emphasis on role playing, the NPC dialogs are one of the things most likely to detract from that goal, either because of the dialogs themselves or because of the insistence that the players solicit help in-game from other players rather than use other out-of-band channels.  Sure, if the questions can be phrased along the lines of "where is..." and "who does...", NPC dialog related questions can be "role-played."  However, the nature of the problems people have with the quests and dialog usually end up with lots of in-game "tell" dialogs (if people shift over) or simply a lot of "out-of-character" conversations with most of the discussion in a given area delimited by brackets.  (Note that this is a problem with questions about game mechanics as well.  It is one thing to explain in character what materials may be needed to craft something or to explain who provides the necessary training and tools, it is another to try to explain exactly how something like steel is actually crafted in PlaneShift when there is, at best, a tenuous relationship between the physics and engineering of Yliakin and our own universe.)  Keeping players in character is hard enough without requiring them to engage in out-of-character discussions in-game rather than in the forums or the chat channel.

Jeraphon

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Re: Crosh Dunehammer's "Drinks in the Deep" quest
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2008, 03:18:06 am »
Walkthrough, you say? Link please.  :detective:

Xillix Queen of Fools

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Re: Crosh Dunehammer's "Drinks in the Deep" quest
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2008, 03:26:01 am »
In another thread just last one someone complained that the triggers were too easy.

We can't win . . .

Prolix

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Re: Crosh Dunehammer's "Drinks in the Deep" quest
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2008, 04:13:42 am »
Come on Xilly Rabbit, you only lose if they do not talk about it at all!
That link Jer, is likely on some guild page. It might be the 4th comment on this page you might ask them to do something about it. BTW it appears to have an ip address associated with it.

Rizin

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Re: Crosh Dunehammer's "Drinks in the Deep" quest
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2008, 04:28:44 am »
One thing I will say without jumping into the whole conversation. Quests are improving and we are working on older ones. It just takes time. Patience is a virtue. 

Also, I've asked and asked for people to send me things (PM, e-mail) that they think are odd. Some I can use, some I cannot, and some I can get to quicker than others, but I do keep them all and work on them as I can.

Nedward Dufflin

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Re: Crosh Dunehammer's "Drinks in the Deep" quest
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2008, 06:10:53 am »
Walkthrough, you say? Link please.  :detective:

I am sure you can use Google as well as I can...

*edit*

In another thread just last one someone complained that the triggers were too easy.

We can't win . . .

The triggers?  So, the "fun" part of the quests is meant to be divining the specific keywords or phrases the author had in mind?  Well, I suppose that could be considered entertaining as some sort of a word puzzle, but it doesn't seem like much of a fit with a virtual world intended as a stage for role playing.

People in the real world may often misunderstand us, but outside of challenge-response at a sentry point on a battlefield or, possibly, some spy recognition exchange, we usually expect a little more flexibility in the interest of actual communication.  While PlaneShift is unlikely to ever offer the versatility we experience in real life, it seems to me that NPC dialog ought to strive more for communication rather than mind reading.  Moreover, I think that is the intent, but sometimes the report and response about particular problems is, well, on different tangents...  Yes, players are sometimes stupid, but sometimes they may just be pointing out a problem in a quest with little to no useful information other than their confusion over the dialog.  That should be a reasonable starting point for a review when more than one complaint is made about a given quest.  After all, the players generally don't have the entire quest script available to them to provide context or to help them focus their point.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 01:00:53 pm by neko kyouran »