Remove OOC numbers from weapon stats descriptions

[Rongar Elani]

I mentioned this before, but it was addressed in the wrong thread, hence I'll start over new and go more into detail.

As we all know, current weapons and other items have certain stats on them. Let's stick to weapons though, for now. A standard short sword from Harnquist has the following stats:

Speed: 2.00
Slash: 2.00
Weight: 2.2
Quality: 50/50

Now the problem I have is firstly the slash, it's a total OOC value made up out of thin air, determing the effectiveness of any weapon. Further, as it is now, it's rather the type of weapon than the weight, that determines the speed and the damage.

In my opinion, the slash value should just vanish. Instead, use the quality and the weight of a weapon to measure for its speed and damage. The better the quality, the higher its damage. Likewise the heavier a weapon, the higher its damage, but the slower its speed.

Speed, however, should not be refered to as a number, that's just OOC. Better, categorize weapon speed in "very slow", "slow", "medium", "fast", "very fast, like the combat skill description reads. Numbers should still come into play, but not to be seen by us players. Say, a very fast weapon has a speed of 1.0 - 2.0, maybe even depending on the wielders' stats/skills.

Same goes for quality. Since 0.3.019 (I believe), crafted weapons have a certain name attached to them, depending on their quality. A short sword with a quality between 50 and 100 for example, is called "Common", between 250 and 300 "Finest". And that's how it should be, as it is not OOC.

Weight on the other hand, is not OOC, since weight was always measured in numbers, hence it should be visible for the player, as he is to evaluate the weapon by its weight aswell.

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Example weapon:

(Before the make-over)

Short Sword

Code: [Select]

Finest Short Sword

Category: Weapons
Weight: 2.2
Size: 5
Quality: 300/300

Speed: 2.00

Slash: 2.00

Description: A short sword
(After the make-over)

Light Steel Short Sword

Code: [Select]

Finest Short Sword

Weapon speed: Medium
Weight: 2.2 pounds

Description: A steel short sword of finest quality.
That's all the player can see. Eventually also:

Code: [Select]

Quality: High
But that's probably tautologous.

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Now to the material a weapon is made of. To be honest, I don't know much about chemical constitutions of metals, hence I cannot give proper examples, but different metals should result in different weights and qualities. Gold for example is too soft, so it wouldn't make a good weapon, although it's quite a heavy metal. So the max quality for a weapon made of gold should be quite low, at least not over 100/100, no matter if the crafter has lvl 400 in swordmaking and used the finest gold. But well, I guess the different materials will come into play anyway sooner or later.

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Concluding, in my opinion PS would greatly benefit from such a system. I know it would be a pain in the to code something like that, but, imagine you'd have the code at hand, would you implement it? Would it work out? If you think 'Yup, that would be something.', then please consider coding it. Rather sooner than later, as you'd have to re-work more already existing weapons, the longer it takes. I don't mean to put any pressure on you though, you know that, right?

[Marqsaynt]

I actually really like this idea, Rongar.

I would almost take it one step further, and get rid of anything that says speed to begin with... maybe just base that on the weight of the weapon and the strength/agility of the character? That way, a stronger character could swing a heavier weapon faster than a weaker character which, seems to make sense to me from a IC and realism standpoint. Also, one could choose something like a Tin Shortsword (which I assume would be pretty light but not as strong) over a Steel Shortsword (which I figure would be stronger but heavier so, slower) based on their fighting style and what the situation dictates.

The only downside I see for this method of indicating weapon strength and speed is that a it would make timing for duels essentially unique for each character... which in some ways, I think could actually be a kind of cool side-effect.

As to what to do with the "size" number in the weapon descriptions, I have no idea... from what I've seen the size seems to be a bit screwed for various items... so maybe just do away with it all together and just make everything size: 1 and not list that fact at all, figuring it's kind of intuitive to just assume. Or maybe put size into some "real" value like inches or centimeters so, it's not so OOC.

Anyways, to this idea. 

[Under the moon]

If there were to be a change, weapon's usefulness and speed should be based on three things.

A)   Weight, obviously. Two weapons are identical in shape, but one is heavier. This will yield a slower swing speed, but possible higher damage, based on point B and C.
B)   Balance. Where that weight is placed is far more important than how much something weights. Contrary to this and most other games, an axe or mace is a better weapon than a sword, due to the weight being balanced to one end. This makes an axe that weights the same as a sword both faster -and- more damaging. A sword will do no damage to plate, while and axe or mace of the same weight will.
C)   Strength. To go back to point A, the weapon has to be swung at a certain speed before it will do much damage at all. In this way, if you give your character a heavy claymore that he/she is -just- strong enough to hold, you will do FAR less, or even no damage at all compared to a lighter weapon that is easy for your character to swing.

Weapon edge type gauges how much damage is done to a certain type of target. With the same low speed of impact, a sharp edge will do more damage to a soft, sliceable material, while doing minimal damage to a harder target. However, only weight, point of balance, and speed of swing (based on character skill and strength) can harm an armored target. That is unless you trump that with knowledge of the foe's 'soft' spots.

So, I would give weapons two base stats for damage. Weight and balance.

Quality is a forth stat that is needed, but has nothing to do with damage. All it should do is tell you how long your weapon will last, or how easily it will break if used the wrong way. A simple hardwood club would have a higher quality (lasts long and does not break easily) than most swords. Its lighter weight balanced to one end would make it a fast blunt weapon suitable for soft to medium-hard targets, since it does not have the mass to damage a hard target. Though it would not be about to do as much damage as a sharp weapon of the same weight on softer targets, it would do equal amounts of damage to medium-hard targets, as the sharpness is negated.

Edged is a soft tissue damage modifier, which will go down with use based on quality. Adding Edged to a weapon will make it superior against soft to medium targets. However, the sharpness should degrade faster as the hardness of the target goes up.

Another modifier is Piercing, which simply means putting some sort of spike on a club/mace/axe type weapon with all the weight to one end. This does massive damage to both soft and hard targets -if- swung hard enough with enough weight. However, every hit with a piercing weapon should have a chance of getting stuck. A mining pick would have a very high Piercing rating, meaning it would inflict heavy damage to most targets -if- it can be swung hard enough, but has a very high chance of getting stuck. Combined with the massive weight, it would make a very poor weapon.

[Vornne]

I really like this idea also... so to try expand on what Marqsaynt and UTM said (this is going to be scrambled as I edited it multiple times and moon posted meanwhile):

I think the system we have now mixes up the quality of the weapon with the sharpness of the blade, so with this system the 'speed' (time to slash) would be determined by the weight and possibly the strength and/or agility of the character, and the 'slash' would be removed, instead using the first number of the current quality, and name it edge (from UTM, sharpness was what I was going to call it).

I like UTM's idea of balance, it could be a value in the database, but I'd say it does not need to be in the description, it would be particular to the type of weapon, for example all 'short swords' would have the same or similar balance values.

I was thinking the dmg_slash, dmg_pierce, dmg_blunt values could maybe stay, only to be used in a few calculations to do with armor types, but after the previous post I'm not sure...

I  was thinking the quality value should stay to represent the properties of the metal, though perhaps there should be two of the values, to account for hardness and elasticity, a sword made of very good metal would have both fairly high, a low quality sword could be hard but brittle and possibly break, a wood club would not be hard but be elastic (not brittle). The hardness value would cap how sharp the edge can be repaired, and the elasticity/brittleness could be how liklely the weapon is to totally break, either needing extensive repairs or be turned to rubbish.

So I guess that leaves balance/type, hardness, elasticity/brittleness (anyone got a better word?), weight, and possibly piercing. The scripts we have now be modified to place comparatively much more emphasis on the first quality number, and make it the sharpness/edge. Leave the second quality number as hardness, make more values for brittleness and balance, we have the weight already. I haven't thought on the piercing side of this, but that would need a expanded combat system that allowed different types of attacks in my opinion.

Code: [Select]

Finest Short Sword

Hardness: Very Hard
Elasticity: Moderately Brittle
Edge: Very Sharp
Weight: 2.2 pounds


Code: [Select]

Common Club

Hardness: Soft
Elasticity: Elastic
Edge: Very Blunt
Weight: 2.2 pounds

Or, instead of 'Hardness: Soft' for example they could be like 'Hardness: Low' if that would be easier.

By the way Marqsaynt, the size value is used to tell if it will fit in a sack or similar, I would not get rid of that one myself, hopefully the items will all have it set correctly some day.

I have modified this post so many times I fear it will come out a bit confused I think I should try to implement some of this on a svn server and see what works... Xordan is redoing this sort of stuff soon^tm too.

[Rongar Elani]

Oh, excellent! Finally some movement here

And the quality of your replies is commendable.


Now, let me see. Thus far we all agree that the current system could do with some changes, since it's lacking sense and integrity to the settings. However, I've tried to post a reply a couple of times now, in which I was saying in what points I disagree and why. I was almost finished, but let me tell you, it would have been one heck of a post, not because I disagreed with you on so many points, but I was going to complicate things even more. Lotsa quotes, long passages about a weapons' lenght, mass centres, reversed leverage and what not. So I canceled it, as it would have blasted all our heads


Instead, let's try to find a common denominator. I think we agree to disagree on the quality thing. The best solution would probably be to split it up in sharpness (or bluntness), and durabilty. And that's actually the way it is right now. The overall name is quality, but the first value could refer to the sharpness - which decreases by usage -, and the second value for the durabilty - which decreases by maintenance. Of course the durability will fall when you sharpen a weapon, since it's getting more and more brittle due to material loss. So, personally, I think the value we're currently refering to as 'quality' could just remain as it is, no? Another thing that should be mentioned; how would one maintain a club? Wouldn't it probably be better if blunt weapons just wear out?


Secondly, a great idea there with a weapons' balance, UTM. I wouldn't have come to think of it myself, to be honest. But I agree with Vornne, when he suggests to have weapon balance to be weapon specific, and only slightly fluctuating. It's actually obvious that, from a hammer and a sword which are of the same weight, it is the hammer with the greater impact on the target, due to its mass centre. Alas! I'm getting too close to one of my previous attempts of a reply... what I wanted to say was: let's just aim for a certain simplicity. The player shouldn't bother with too many variables, the developer maybe, but not the player


Thridly, an overall great post, Vornne mate, and far from looking scrambled


And finally, nice idea on the speed being affected by the wielders stats, Marq. I've been thinking about this too, see my first post But I retreated from amplifying the idea, as I wasn't really sure if that would be a good idea. It'd be realistic though, indeed, and probably worth further discussion.


Now let me sum up a little. Every weapon should have advantages and disadvantages in usage against different materials. Or in other words, every weapon should have a modifier for blunt, slash and pierce, affecting the effectivity, whereas effectivity is already the product of weight and sharpness/bluntness... (Uh oh, getting complicated again ) A sword would have a high slash modifier, a medium pierce modifier and a low blunt modifier, hence a sword wouldn't be too good against a Kran. I'll try to illustrate.

Code: [Select]

Short Sword

Durability: High
Sharpness: High

Slash: High (x1)
Blunt: Medium (x0.5)
Pierce: Low (x0)

Weight: 2.2 pounds
Okay, the first two values don't need further explanation, I think. They refer to the general effectiveness and are visible for the player.

The following three values are the weapon specific modifiers. They determine the effectiveness against different "materials". Taking the example numbers in brackets, one would do a nice damage against Ylians, but little damage against Kran. These modifiers are weapon specific, however, and invisible.

Weight is visible for the player, of course. And it affects speed and effectiveness. But don't let us go too much into detail, it's giving me a headache already

The clean description for said sword would then be something like:

Code: [Select]

Short Sword

Durability: High
Sharpness: High
Weight: 2.2 pounds
Whaddaya think? But remember, my thoughts are sometimes a bit confusing, even for me, thus the idea is all in all still

PS: Anyone who finds a reasoning error gets a cookie.

*Edit*

Actually I found an error of reasoning myself. In the example, the sharpness (first value of quality) should affect the modifiers. The more dull it's getting, the lower the slash modifier, but the higher the blunt modifier.

* Rongar Elani hands himself a cookie.

[Zan]

The day that a skilled unarmed fighter with daggers stands no chance against someone with little skill, plate mail and a claymore comes, I'll be happy with the combat system.

Right now what you wield or wear makes little difference, it's mostly the skill that counts. Skill should affect parrying and dodging chances, as well as weapon speed .. not so much damage.

I'm all for UtM's suggestion, only one addition: weight can positively influence damage but it should negatively influence your parrying ability. With a heavy axe or mace you can't deflect half of what you can block with a short sword. Of course the other way around, blocking an axe blow will be hard even with a sword. So heavier weapons are good for offensive stances but rather useless for a defensive one.