[Guild] The Hydlaa Arena

[Zan]

However I would comprehend the frustration of someone else that planned to make a similar guild and be met with less sympathy. I am guessing that in this circumstance players would lean over choosing Donari's Guild because it assumes an official status. That would be a very unfair situation.

I don't think so .. someone else planning a similar guild will be met with less sympathy because they're not the first to do so and can be accused of simply copying Donari's recipy (regardless of whether they did or not). Obviously they can assume an equally official status and also say they work with Gregori, applying his rules to the Arena. That means they'll be practically the same as this guild though.

I would chose Donari's guild because it is original and the first of it's kind .. unless the new guild has a better concept of course.

What Donari intends by claiming they work under Gregori is exactly the same as what I intended by claiming Dakkru's Will works under Oriven, Rulayne and Londris. It means these guilds will abide by the material settings already gave us, create extra content beyond it to a degree but each time that new settings material comes up they'll re-evaluate the way they work. Saying Gregori is in charge is in many ways the same as saying Settings is in charge. Settings brought out a book, under Gregori's name of how the Arena should work. This guild is simply meant to turn said book into practice.

And should a guild with the same job pop up .. well, UtM already said it, just like when you have two different people bartending the same tavern .. both will have to decide whether they'll work together or fight eachother for customers.

[Donari Tyndale]

Janner, again, you proved to me that you are someone that lacks understanding of roleplay. What my char does and says is totally different from what I do and say.
1. A lie. At least I and Nadesa never did so, I do not know about the newbie we recruited.
2. People wanted an explanation of the guild, and I gave it to them. Now, there is almost 0 OOC chat.
In order to understand why Janner is wrong, I need to explain what happened. My char, Vencarias, talked to Janner ICly. No indication was made Janner wanted me to stop OOCly, thus I assumed he wanted Vencarias to convince Janner. I received a tell in a few metres distance, and I assumed it was a whisper. After a while it struck me as a realization that I might not have a roleplayer in front of me, but someone that might be confused about roleplay and how to seperate OOC and IC. So I replied, asking him OOCly wether he wanted me to stop. I did not receive an answer until I asked again. In his reply, Janner's tone was most inappropriate, he accused me of forcing roleplay onto him. However, I never received anything from him stating he would like to cease the roleplay with me prior to this point. I expressed my thoughts about him on IRC.
Point 4 is a lie. The characters in the guild don't even have any glyphs or magic skills up to now.

If anyone else would like to do another guild that works for Gregori, feel free to do so. Up to now the only thing we claim is to be under Gregori's leadership, we do not claim to be the only ones udner his leadership.

[Janner]

Janner, again, you proved to me that you are someone that lacks understanding of roleplay. What my char does and says is totally different from what I do and say.
1. A lie. At least I and Nadesa never did so, I do not know about the newbie we recruited.

  Vencarias wrinkles his fat eyebrows "Well, master Stevald owns it"

2. People wanted an explanation of the guild, and I gave it to them. Now, there is almost 0 OOC chat.
In order to understand why Janner is wrong, I need to explain what happened. My char, Vencarias, talked to Janner ICly. No indication was made Janner wanted me to stop OOCly, thus I assumed he wanted Vencarias to convince Janner. I received a tell in a few metres distance, and I assumed it was a whisper. After a while it struck me as a realization that I might not have a roleplayer in front of me, but someone that might be confused about roleplay and how to seperate OOC and IC. So I replied, asking him OOCly wether he wanted me to stop. I did not receive an answer until I asked again. In his reply, Janner's tone was most inappropriate, he accused me of forcing roleplay onto him. However, I never received anything from him stating he would like to cease the roleplay with me prior to this point. I expressed my thoughts about him on IRC.

(13:31:18) Janner says: That is why this place was built so go away and stop bothering me.

(13:33:37) Janner says: Again I say go away.

Side not here Janner|RennajI will prove no more here as Both a Head of Devs and GM Leader has seen all the logs.
Point 4 is a lie. The characters in the guild don't even have any glyphs or magic skills up to now.

If anyone else would like to do another guild that works for Gregori, feel free to do so. Up to now the only thing we claim is to be under Gregori's leadership, we do not claim to be the only ones udner his leadership.

[Donari Tyndale]

1. A lie. At least I and Nadesa never did so, I do not know about the newbie we recruited.
I=Me, the player. Vencarias=my char.

The rest was IC chat, no reason for me as a player to assume I should stop. Unfortunately there are people who don't keep OOC and IC seperate.

[Sangwa]

After my encounter with this hastily put together guild.

1. No real background knowledge seamed to have be researched, as they were claiming Gregori owned it when they first entered the game.

2. They clam to be enhancing roleplay, yet for 1 hour until they were told to stop, 75% of say was [ooc]

3. I have seen it claimed no one will be told to leave. quote from a member of this guild. "If you want to leave, feel free to do so"

4. I was also Harassed in tells, also they Harassed me by luring monster away with magic, to stop me fighting it.

5. But the biggest sin of all was on #planeshift, I was accused of being rude in tells.

SO to sum up, if you want this, do not force it on others. Also do not harass anyone in away.

First it's important to note that you can't make something work well without experience. Not unless you're extremely lucky. I'll try to give my opinions based on Janner's account of things.

1- In the Promotional Thread topic it seems there is a good background knowledge. Donari has read the book and obviously contacted Gregori. She may have failed in either expressing that knowledge or in communicating it to her staff. If so... She should think about organizing things better.

I considered the other points as rather irrelevant since they do not concern the guild directly, instead focusing on the interaction between players. This should be handled by GM's, not discussed in the Guild Forum.

As a side note, Janner considers "The Hydlaa's Arena" isn't owned by Gregori and the guild's official vibe automatically sounded defying to him. That's what I meant about conservative players.
He's a GM and he should know what is acceptable... I haven't seen him take much notice of any other guild though and there are ones with graver assumptions.

However I would comprehend the frustration of someone else that planned to make a similar guild and be met with less sympathy. I am guessing that in this circumstance players would lean over choosing Donari's Guild because it assumes an official status. That would be a very unfair situation.

I don't think so .. someone else planning a similar guild will be met with less sympathy because they're not the first to do so and can be accused of simply copying Donari's recipy (regardless of whether they did or not). Obviously they can assume an equally official status and also say they work with Gregori, applying his rules to the Arena. That means they'll be practically the same as this guild though.

I would chose Donari's guild because it is original and the first of it's kind .. unless the new guild has a better concept of course.

What Donari intends by claiming they work under Gregori is exactly the same as what I intended by claiming Dakkru's Will works under Oriven, Rulayne and Londris. It means these guilds will abide by the material settings already gave us, create extra content beyond it to a degree but each time that new settings material comes up they'll re-evaluate the way they work. Saying Gregori is in charge is in many ways the same as saying Settings is in charge. Settings brought out a book, under Gregori's name of how the Arena should work. This guild is simply meant to turn said book into practice.

And should a guild with the same job pop up .. well, UtM already said it, just like when you have two different people bartending the same tavern .. both will have to decide whether they'll work together or fight eachother for customers.

A good point. Specially if Donari doesn't complain about having other people sharing that "official" status. I'm still not seeing her happy if  someone takes up that task for itself and starts acting like a complete corrupt/clown while assuming to be Gregori's staff.
That is why I keep my conservative thinking: assuming official status is a responsibility that should be handed by the corresponding authority within PlaneShift.

Again, I agree wholeheartedly that Donari is doing what should have been done a while ago, either by a player project (maybe one less ambitious as far as demanding official status is concerned) or by the respective part of the PlaneShift team. I'd rather have Donari claiming full official status than have no one tending to the Arena.

EDITED: Erased a part and added another, to reflect what Donari said.
EDITED x2: Considered point 2 irrelevant as well.

Moderator's Note: I think Janner and Donari have discussed enough about their encounter. Further conversation concerning that topic and failing to provide useful opinions to the guild will be deleted.

[saladasalad]

First of all, I'd like to make people think about the Arena as an actual place of meeting, not just some place to kill mobs and loot stuff.

I'm not sure that the Arena really should be a 'place of meeting', I always thought that it was the one place in Yliakum that actually was dedicated to killing mobs and looting stuff.

Next, I'd like to provide another area of roleplay, as I noticed a lack of it recently, especially in the training aspect. I hope that this guild will help those that were too much involved with the game mechanics to learn to enjoy roleplay. Not only to those the guild will be an addition for the game, but also for those that prefer to roleplay, as the guild will open new possibilities for roleplay.

IMO, this project feels like a direct attack on so-called 'power-levellers' by the elitist RPers. I believe many other people that frequent the Arena will view it the same way.

The Hydlaa Arena guild focusses on the maintenance of the Arena and it's handling. Furthermore, it organizes several events that see to the entertainment of the Arena's visitors and those that challenge the gladiators.

What about events/tournaments organised by third-parties? Will they need permission from this guild or will they also be able to claim permission from Gregori? What if Gregori accidentally gives permission to 2 different event organisers at the same place at the same time?

Disclaimer: This is not an attack, please do not treat it as such.

[Velh Krome]

First off, PS is an RPG, so roleplayers should have priority.
Then I cant see the direct attack. It strives to provide an atmosphere in the arena that also suits roleplayers and may give them a reason to go there at all. I for one am hardly there, since I could only roleplay without any response form other chars there. After all, how can roleplay be a direct attack on powerlevelers? Everyone not giving a heck about can just ignore it.
So if you want so, supporting roleplayers can be a direct attack on powerlevelers, why ever.

I assume a "place of meeting" means right that atmosphere that emphasizes roleplay. Currently the arena is sort of "inofficially" declared as an ooc place. Not very fitting for a roleplaying game to have such spots. You can say "killng mobs and looting stuff", but you could also say its for "for maintaining battle skills and gaining experience, to keep up a sharp mind and reflexes". The way you worded it already proves it to be an ooc'ish place, yet. Of course to have main spammed by green messages by default also causes people to ignore the arena. Maybe that default could be changed..

[saladasalad]

First off, PS is an RPG, so roleplayers should have priority.

You could put it that way but you could also say that because we are all playing an RPG that we are all roleplayers. Some people hold an elitist attitude about it though and would like to exclude those that they call powerlevelers.

The way you worded it already proves it to be an ooc'ish place, yet.

I used the wording 'killng mobs and looting stuff' because that is the wording used in the opening post, and that precise wording sets the tone of the guild description; the 'anti-powerleveling in the Arena' tone that makes the guild seem like a direct attack on 'PLers'. See my point?

The way I see it, if I'm RPing and character who is training in the Arena by fighting gladiators and rogues to the death, then I'm unlikely to be in the position to conduct meaningful discussions at the same time (this is what some around here might call 'powerleveling'). Doing so would distract me from the blood-thirsty rogue trying to hack me to death. After a hard day's training in the arena, I might go to the tavern to have some drinks and have a chat with some friends (so-called 'RPing'). The tavern (and anywhere else not crawling with aggro npc's) is the appropriate place for casual and/or serious discussion... not the Arena.

You see, it all depends on your definition of roleplaying. In my eyes, the people who frequent the arena are correctly RPing someone training at the Arena. Anyone sitting around the arena, drinking and talking about their love life has a strange idea of what roleplaying is, yet doing the same thing in a tavern...... I hope you all understand where I'm coming from here.

[Dajoji]

First off, PS is an RPG, so roleplayers should have priority(...)

Careful there. All players have the same right to enjoy the game the way they like best as long as they do not ruin it for others and respect the game rules. No priorities when it comes to whose fun comes first.

[Zan]

If you insist on seeing this as an attack, see it as an attack to retrieve some ground which we gave up without a fight in the past.  Like Velh said, the arena has always been a rather OOC place, training, looting and what not. It is filled with levelers and roleplay is rare. This initiative is meant to introduce roleplay to the Arena again. So let me turn your feeling of unfounded hostilities against levelers around ... why should levelers be the only ones that have something positive in the arena? You guys have ruled that place for so long, now give us a piece too and let us have this guild. It is not about enforcing roleplay, it is about providing roleplay for those who want it.

All we really have is the tavern, partially because of our own kind's unwillingness to go elsewhere, I admit. But I wouldn't be worried about having next week's tea sipping session of the guild of extraordinary gentlemen in the arena. People still go there to fight and train, but now we can go there properly and interact a bit at least .. instead of just going quietly, standing by an NPC and killing it over and over and over.

I'm not going to talk about who has priority but I will ask this ... Why is it so hard for some people to share?

[saladasalad]

But I wouldn't be worried about having next week's tea sipping session of the guild of extraordinary gentlemen in the arena.

Please don't assume that I am a powerleveler and that I oppose RP.... I just don't see the clear distinction between them that other's do. Most people I know that are so-called powerlevelers enjoy a good RP as much as the rest of us, they might not be as creative or confident as the rest of us though. It's worth having a think about.

[Donari Tyndale]

*Donari equips his anti-powerleveller armour and readies for battle. He smiles innocently "An assault on powerlevellers?" and quickly hides his sword of roleplay +3 behind bis back. "Never."
The guild offers an option to those that wish not to be disturbed by roleplay and mind their business, as you can choose wether to roleplay with it or not. So far, I received many positive views of this guild from people in the Arena, and only one negative one (You-know-who ;P).

[Eliseth]

You-know-who

I knew it! Voldemort IS here! Its time the truth came out everyone... *sigh* I am Harry Potter. Now, to the magimobile! 

..

Ahem... anyway, I've been helping Donari with this guild since he started it, and what I've noticed is that most people in the arena are not roleplayers at ALL, most of the ones I've spoken to hardly know these forums even exist! And when I take Nadesa up to them and ask them for a fee, they get down right cranky with me. Understandably so of course, through their eyes I'm just some player claiming to own the place. However, here's the thing... guess what I do when I am faced with such hostility... go 'head guess... I do nothing at all, I tell them "happy training" and go on my merry way.

The point here is, we're not forcing this on anyone, the only ones who will be affected by the guild's existence are the ones who actually WANT to be affected by it. So from my point of view, disputing whether it should or should not exist is rather pointless. As Donari said, if you don't like it, ignore it. Let PLers and RPers live together in harmony, neither disturbing the other. And when a Hydlaa Arena person comes up to you wanting to RP and you don't, just say so, please, we'll leave you alone.

All righty, I've said my piece, now I'm going to go and fight evil. Toodles!

[Phinehas]

Sorry, Eliseth, but that won't fly. These are the forums and it's perfectly correct for us to discuss whether we, the RPers think that this is a valid guild. You're right in that people who don't want to RP at all can ignore, but what about those who do want to RP, but just don't like the way it's going on? Are you saying that anyone who doesn't like anyone else's RP should just ignore it? I think not. If that were the case we might as well be playing rpgs, instead of mmorpgs...

Sorry for the off-topic--ish-ness-ity, but I disagree strongly with the insinuation that RPers shouldn't be discussing things in the hopes of reaching mutual agreements about RP.

[Zan]

In my eyes Eliseth was talking about the argument of levelers not liking with roleplayer-oriented guilds being active in the arena. I don't think she said that people with valid arguments can't present them here.