Some quests too hard to figure out what to say

[Lepretr0n]

With alot of quests, its way too hard to figure out what to say. I have about 15 quests going at one time that i can't get rid of because i can only do them once, only because the NPC's don't understand me. It got so frustrating, I basically quit altogether. I hope you find a diffrent system to do quests in, because this method is pretty hopeless. Unless you make it more clear what to say. I know alot if the time it will tell you what to say, but sometimes it doesn't.

I know this is a challenging aspect, but its challenging in a buggy, unrealistic way. It's not like a tough obstical or enemy you have to kill, but more of an annoying crappy frustrating stupid thing. 

[Jonerian]

Well, guess what. For me it is seldom a problem to figure out what to say. The NPC dialog has been improved a lot.
I really like this system and it won't go away because somebody can't talk to the first NPC they met and thinks the system is sh.., just because of that.

If you have REAL issues, where you know exactly what you want to say, but the NPC only accepts something stupid
go here:
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=29353.0

[neko kyouran]

the reason why most of them probably aren't working is becuase you have opened many that involve the same NPC for multiple quests and when you talk to that NPC it is getting confused as to what you are trying to say to them so it doesn't recognize you telling them what the correct (and there are multiple ways you can say what is required to say and quests have multiple way the can branch off depending on what you say) response, so it gets stuck and you go no where.  yes, that can be annoying, but you are in luck, one of our wonderful testers came up with a solution to that issue not too long ago, and hopefully will be rolled out in an upcoming release.

[Izzabella]

the reason why most of them probably aren't working is becuase you have opened many that involve the same NPC for multiple quests and when you talk to that NPC it is getting confused as to what you are trying to say to them so it doesn't recognize you telling them what the correct (and there are multiple ways you can say what is required to say and quests have multiple way the can branch off depending on what you say) response, so it gets stuck and you go no where.  yes, that can be annoying, but you are in luck, one of our wonderful testers came up with a solution to that issue not too long ago, and hopefully will be rolled out in an upcoming release.

I am pretty sure that's already out..cause I've done lots of questing in the last few months and taken up to 17 at the same time and had no problems. The biggest thing when doing quests is to READ everything carefully, take notes, and if you forget something check your logs.

[Lanarel]

Nope, not out yet But especially many new quests are made in a way that are not that easy to mix up.

[Jonerian]

The biggest thing when doing quests is to READ everything carefully, take notes, and if you forget something check your logs.

That's d.. right. Most of the times I have problems with NPCs I just try to be really smart and kind of overlooked that they wanted something else.. Or I try for quite some time to tell an NPC my solution to a riddle until I find a better solution and see, that my other one is kind of farfetched in comparision.. (I did quite many riddles the last days)

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

read to succeed, if anyone finds places where the next thing to say is not given verbatim, or an alternate CORRECT answer to a riddle, submit them to Jeraphon.

[svuun]

17 quests open?  Game mechanics aside, my suggestion is to ask for help in game for quests. That means making friends, forming bonds, relationships, being part of the community.  And I don't mean asking for answers per se, but rather asking for clues, hints that might allow you to arrive at the right answer.

Questing doesn't have to be a one person affair. When I first started I met someone who later became a guildmate that was at the same level as I and we would often do quests together, and I remember a time very clearly where we were both stuck at the same NPC, not knowing what to say and having tried multiple phrases.  But after racking our brains together for 5 minutes, we combined ideas, and arrived at a solution. It was wholly satisfying. 

Finding another doing the same quest as you is probably difficult I'm sure but there are so many in game that have probably completed those quests that it won't be hard to find someone with in game wisdom and ask them for help.  Some are very eager to give you the answer directly and if you aren't lazy preface your questions with [don't give me the answer but give me a hint] and allow yourself to come at the solution.

I know quests can be frustrating especially since answers require exact phrases and not meanings.  Ideally the npc should understand meaning but that's probably more difficult to code.  I'm hoping in the future that the NPC's will understand multiple phrases at least and therefore make a step closer to understanding meaning as opposed to exact "input."  I remember playing king's quest back in the day (late 80's) and exact phrases weren't needed, but multiple variations of words and phrases were understood by those npc's.  There's no reason why that can't be today.  Then again that game was purely quest driven and probably had a decent engine to parse sentences so was sophisticated in that aspect.  That being aside allowing NPC's to understand multiple phrases at given points in the quest would bring them closer to understanding meaning and add reaslism.  A good example of it currently working is how we ask for quests-- there are multiple phrases.  I think this should be employed within various points of the quest too.  crap, this turned into a wishlist item. ah well.

Hope this helped.

[Lanarel]

17 quests open?  Game mechanics aside, ....

Game mechanics not aside , until there is a new release with my changes, it is not wise to have too many quests open. Quests involving the same NPC or with NPCs that respond to many things, have a good chance of getting broken.

Ideally the npc should understand meaning but that's probably more difficult to code.  I'm hoping in the future that the NPC's will understand multiple phrases at least and therefore make a step closer to understanding meaning as opposed to exact "input."  I remember playing king's quest back in the day (late 80's) and exact phrases weren't needed, but multiple variations of words and phrases were understood by those npc's.  There's no reason why that can't be today.  Then again that game was purely quest driven and probably had a decent engine to parse sentences so was sophisticated in that aspect.  That being aside allowing NPC's to understand multiple phrases at given points in the quest would bring them closer to understanding meaning and add reaslism.  A good example of it currently working is how we ask for quests-- there are multiple phrases.  I think this should be employed within various points of the quest too.  crap, this turned into a wishlist item. ah well.

There is no reason why that is not today, because it already is . Quest responses are parsed to allow at least some synonyms. ALso, many quests allow for different responses, or even a single word from a response. If you find a case where an answer makes sense but is not accepted, look here how to help solve that.

[steuben]

Questing doesn't have to be a one person affair.

it shant be even in concept for long. *laughs evilly* and i'm not talking about needing a group of people to hunt ulbers and the like. quests that require two people to complete. *laughs evilly again*

[lucasjung]

Ideally the npc should understand meaning but that's probably more difficult to code.  I'm hoping in the future that the NPC's will understand multiple phrases at least and therefore make a step closer to understanding meaning as opposed to exact "input."  I remember playing king's quest back in the day (late 80's) and exact phrases weren't needed, but multiple variations of words and phrases were understood by those npc's.  There's no reason why that can't be today.  Then again that game was purely quest driven and probably had a decent engine to parse sentences so was sophisticated in that aspect.  That being aside allowing NPC's to understand multiple phrases at given points in the quest would bring them closer to understanding meaning and add reaslism.  A good example of it currently working is how we ask for quests-- there are multiple phrases.  I think this should be employed within various points of the quest too.  crap, this turned into a wishlist item. ah well.

There is no reason why that is not today, because it already is . Quest responses are parsed to allow at least some synonyms. ALso, many quests allow for different responses, or even a single word from a response. If you find a case where an answer makes sense but is not accepted, look here how to help solve that.

I agree that this problem is best solved by setting up the parsing system properly.  I disagree that quest responses are currently parsed in a manner that is even remotely acceptable.  I have seen instances where a single word from a response is enough to trigger the proper NPC response, but I have seen far more cases where EXACT verbage is required.  Many people on these forums say, "All you have to do is take careful notes and use the exact words of the NPCs."  That's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.  I SHOULDN'T have to write down exact verbage (or check my logs) because it is NO FUN.  This is a game, so above all else it should be fun.  Moreover, there have been times when I DID write down the exact verbage from the NPC who issued the quest, but ended up having to use a different verbage to get the correct response out of the "target" NPC.

Here's a specific case: there is an early quest that involves taking a drink to someone and then reporting back to the bartender if that person liked the drink.  I said to the bartender, "She liked it."  No dice.  OK: "She liked the drink."  Still doesn't work.  How about: "[Insert person's name here] liked [insert name of drink here]."  Nope.  I finally got it by saying, "[Insert person's name here] said she liked the drink."  The difference between a successful sentence and an unsuccessful one?  The word, "said."  That's inexcusably bad design.  A good parser would have accepted any combination of: ("[person's name]" OR "she") AND ("liked" OR "enjoyed") AND ("drink" OR "[name of the drink]").  That would be very easy to code, especially if you ignore the order of the words (which you should ignore, because English grammar is WAY too complicated, with too many possible word orders for the same meaning).  If quest-related conversation were parsed in this SIMPLE way, most people would trigger the desired NPC response after one or two attempts, every time.

Another specific case: I'm currently trying to complete the prank quest for Taulim Wilaal.  It started with him telling me to go to a specific person and get a specific item.  I found that specific person, but can't seem to get him to understand what I want.  I spent twenty minutes typing in different phrases, all to no avail.  I know exactly what I want from him, but seem unable to communicate that fact to him.  The item I am asking for is simple enough that it should be very easy for a parser to pick out a single key word from my phrases and trigger the proper NPC response, but it just isn't happening.  One common way to deal with this (I am extremely surprised that I have not seen this implemented at all in PlaneShift) is to have an NPC respond to a key word in an otherwise suspect sentence by saying, "Were you asking about [insert quest item here]?"  Of course, you have to be careful with this and take measures to prevent "quest-fishing."  An easy way to control this is to set quest flags.  For example, if Bob goes to Jane and gets a quest assignment from her, a flag associated with that quest is set for Bob.  Let's say the quest is for Bob to fetch the magical feather from Adam.  Bob can walk up to Adam and say just about any sentence that contains "magical feather," and Adam will say, "You want the magical feather from me?"  Now, if Sharon hasn't gone to Jane to get the quest yet, and she walks up to Adam and says anything about the magical feather, even if she says, "Jane sent me to get the magical feather," Adam will say he doesn't know what she's talking about, because she doesn't have the proper flag set.  Simple!

Bottom line: players have to spend waaay too much time trying to guess the right way to say something, and not nearly enough time figuring out the substance of what to say.  This sucks the fun right out of the game.  I realize that many people are probably working very hard on this, but I think the biggest problem lies in their design choices: design of anything is always about trade-offs, and this game needs to trade away some strict control over quest execution in favor of smoother NPC interaction for players.

[Izzabella]

okay, okay you guys win  one finally bit me in the butt!

I have two quests open that deal with Lori and when I say yes, to the second one that I want, she says the response to the first one that I started a long time ago and no longer have the item too..so it can be done! Hehe severs me right, I know..but I only had like 6 open at this point! maybe even less...

[Rizin]

Quests are improving. Older quests have issues but they are being reworked and updated as you may have noticed from some recent posts. Everything is still in development...and will continue to grow.

As I've said before on the forums and on IRC - if you spend time with a quest trying to guess something, once you finally get it send me - via PM or email - 1) the name of the quest 2) what the npc said you were trying to answer and 3) what responses you tried that did not work.

I'll be more than happy to look over it and add anything that fits. We never turn down information.

EDIT to add:

Izzabella PM me the details and I'll see if we can't straighten out the overlap.

[Ahrimann]

A good text parser can work. Many popular adventure classics are a proof of that. Many companies that created those classics have also long since moved onto better and more intuitive systems.

Is it really worth it dragging such an outdated system into today's games?

The current PlaneShift text parser way:

You walk into a magic shop and ask its owner for a quest by manually typing "give me a quest". His response is (just an example, not an actual quest):

Hmm, I do have a quest for you. Bring me 5 Iron Ores and I will reward you greatly! Will you do this?

Your options (to type manually)

• Yes
• No

If you don't feel like learning "Mining" at this point just to dig Iron Ore, you type "No", followed by multiple "give me a quest" and "No" until you get something suitable.

Simple enough, if "give me a quest" works but gets messy when a quest is triggered through a more complex dialog, where it becomes a "guess the exact phrase" game, even if you know the meaning and could convey it in a different way, if only the NPC wasn't a preprogrammed dummy.

The dialog tree way:

Your options at the bottom of a quest dialog window

• Where can I find them?
• Yes.
• No.
• Do you have any other quests for me?

"Do you have any other quests for me?" cycles through different quests until you get something suitable.

"Where can I find them?" gives you a basic info on a general area you'd have to venture into (if an NPC hasn't already mentioned it), so that you can determine whether your character is powerful enough to go there, if you have to face some opposition. It gives you a chance to get a more detailed info before accepting a quest. Of course, an NPC may not always know where to find something they need or have only a vague idea, which is ok and can have a relevant response. Preferably, an NPC should mention it early enough anyway, if possible. Other quest related inquiry dialog options can be added as needed.

This does not mean that a quest is always given out by simply asking for it. Just as with the current system, you can initiate a regular dialog with an NPC and eventually arrive at a quest. But you will never have to guess or second-guess an exact phrase that a developer has implemented. There is also no chance of mistyping it!

Each NPC can also have a list of dialog options for general information that they are able to provide, such as "Magic" and every magic way as a sub-topic for a magic shop owner. This promotes a better familiarity with the settings.

Whenever you meet different characters such as the "Dark Wanderer", you can easily see what additional information they are able to provide after they mention various things during the introductions. For example, he mentions something about a "Sphere". Typing things like "tell me about sphere" or "about sphere" is always a shot in the dark on whether he has additional information or not.

You always second-guess whether you typed the phrase exactly as a developer preprogrammed it or not (assuming he didn't make any mistakes). You're never quite sure if you guessed the phrase (which could lead to a new quest) or if he doesn't really have any additional information. If he doesn't, you end up seeing the same annoying message of an NPC not understanding you. However, in a dialog tree approach, a "Sphere" option can suddenly appear as a choice as your conversation progresses. If it doesn't, you know that he isn't able to provide more information on the topic (or not yet). This is intuitive and saves time!

There are quests where you have to help someone write a letter. There is pretty much only a single response during each prompt. With the dialog tree system, you can have fun with it and have different choices ranging from ridiculous and funny to the ones that yield the best possible outcome. You may even set up different quest rewards depending on the choices made (perhaps with a note to a player before any critical choices are made and/or a way to backtrack before the final reward is given). Keep in mind that some quests are meant to be private and not a group affair!

A more complex scenario can include different combinations of words, actions and emotions. It can also be useful in negotiation tactics.

• Pretend to find his joke funny and ask to borrow the device.
• Attempt to tell your own joke in return.
• Ask to borrow the device.
• Offer to purchase the device.

No more guessing the exact sentence a developer had in mind, even though you already know the correct next step!

Add to that an ability to combine and/or manipulate inventory items and/or use them on the existing world items and you have a much more interesting system in place.

These examples show exactly why the current text parser system in PlaneShift is so unintuitive and limited by comparison. Keep the current system, if you like but don't complain or be surprised later when yet more players leave the game because of it. At least everyone can safely say that a better system has been suggested but has fallen onto deaf ears again.



Write to do right?

PS The actual dialog choices and their order are only rough examples. Things like "Yes" and "No" can be "Accept" and "Decline" etc.

[Jeraphon]

Hey Zanzibar! How's it going?