Author Topic: [Guild] The Outlaws  (Read 8354 times)

Izzabella

  • Hydlaa Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 442
    • View Profile
    • Outlaws
Re: [Guild] The Outlaws
« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2008, 08:21:30 pm »
* Izzabella slaps Aro around with a big slimy wet fish!


Don't you forget who controls those forums eatiher...

*deletes a few random posts*


No but seriously he's right..no one says this new system is permanent eaither we are testing it out for now and are open to suggestions as well.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2008, 08:41:51 pm by Izzabella »

Zan

  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 1944
  • Just a regular guy, with an irregular soul
    • View Profile
    • Photography
Re: [Guild] The Outlaws
« Reply #46 on: April 13, 2008, 02:23:24 am »
Outlaws are getting organised eh .. who would have thought. :P
Zan Drithor, Member of the Vaalnor Council
Tyrnal Relhorn, Captain of the Vaalguard
Thromdir Shoake, Merchant
Giorn Kleaver, Miner.

Grayne Dholm, Follower of Dakkru

Sangwa

  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2083
  • Chars: Morwen and Gartheiz
    • View Profile
Re: [Guild] The Outlaws
« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2008, 09:29:47 am »
Of course, they have noticed the success organization begets.

I hope you're keeping the whole guild hidden. I'm not sure if many traders would bother dealing with the Outlaws and risking empowering potential enemies.

Besides that, I think the Outlaws are becoming a little bit too organized. This type of organization usually works well with lawful people, since they are okay with following rules, divisions and methodologies. However with unlawful types it might be dangerous as this requires teamwork within divisions, making the group work something necessary rather than a tool you'd use sometimes (because without teamwork your divisions will crumble into separated divisions). This poses two problems the way I see things:
The lone types will be bothered by the necessity of having their work count for everyone. They would much rather enjoy the free life of outlawing, while having a safe haven somewhere and some other thugs to help them when things get ugly.
The other problem is that continuous teamwork is not as invisible as sporadic teamwork. This makes the Economic and Intelligence divisions vulnerable to the reputation acquired my the Mercenary division. Most people will be annoyed when they see a thug that robbed them protect a merchant.

My perspective is that unlawful organizations always profit from loose structuring. Information sharing, banding possibilities, hiring chances are the best advantages I think one can get from a guild of unlawful people and these can be provided in a manner that everyone gives and everyone takes, but none shares (simply means that you don't have to count on anyone else but you, while you give what you don't mind giving and get what others don't mind you get).
While organized work, guaranteed careers, etc, should be found on more lawful projects.

This doesn't mean I think the Outlaws can't try to be organized outside the law. I think it doesn't sound too thuggish though, in depreciation of what the Outlaws once represented (mischief), making the Outlaws not about crime, but about criminal people.
No problem there if you're up for it. I think the result would be interesting: an unoriginal guild (divisions like these aren't news anymore [The Organization, The Dark Empire, late Community of Vaalnor]) with original objectives (gathering people out of the law and giving them a sort of organized life).
This would still leave Yliakum without a fitting underground movement of bandits and the like.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 09:34:31 am by Sangwa »
Disclaimer: This is my opinion and I can be reasoned with. I'm probably right, though.

Join the Dark Empire!

Izzabella

  • Hydlaa Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 442
    • View Profile
    • Outlaws
Re: [Guild] The Outlaws
« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2008, 09:41:48 am »
First off, yes we are staying hidden, it just fits us more IC right now.

And we are really just kinda trying out this new structure right now, everyone was kinda bored without a task to do and focus on--so far everyone seems really excited about actually having something to focus on and do right now.
And I don't see why its a bad thing for the outlaws to work together and help each other out we are all outcast together not all of have necessarily broke laws but have been cast out by society for not fitting and following all the rules or meeting all the high standards ;)
As it stands we stick up for each other, we help out each other, and I know there are even certain outlaws that would sell info or double cross us for a price *cough* Esilet *cough*  (teasing ya-you know I love ya)
Anyways we've really grown to be a tight knit group and we help each other out, because its been proven to us time and time again that we can't count on anyone else..

* Izzabella smiles and glances to Orgonwukh "any thoughts?'

Zan

  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 1944
  • Just a regular guy, with an irregular soul
    • View Profile
    • Photography
Re: [Guild] The Outlaws
« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2008, 10:12:36 am »
Will you be able to stay organised without having to form some sort of rudimentary 'law' within your own organisation?
Zan Drithor, Member of the Vaalnor Council
Tyrnal Relhorn, Captain of the Vaalguard
Thromdir Shoake, Merchant
Giorn Kleaver, Miner.

Grayne Dholm, Follower of Dakkru

Dajoji

  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 1058
    • View Profile
Re: [Guild] The Outlaws
« Reply #50 on: April 14, 2008, 10:23:18 am »
Outcasts that band together and have to endure the same difficulties often develop a law or code of their own. A somewhat flexible but effective set of guidelines to keep themselves in check and avoid slitting each others' throats in the night. Of course, when it's time to make exceptions it comes in handy to be the strongest one around. I see no contradiction in that but there should definitely be a tacit conflict abiding them and the main factor for respecting the rules would be the ruthlessness with which they are enforced.


Orgonwukh

  • Hydlaa Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 254
    • View Profile
Re: [Guild] The Outlaws
« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2008, 05:27:04 pm »
Besides that, I think the Outlaws are becoming a little bit too organized.

We tried the 'bunch of thugs' structure in the past. Orgonwukh did not care if he messed it up with Outlaws members or outsiders during that time.
Let us mourn for a minute about Morila who got tortured and slain by Orgonwukh here, please.
*Orgonwukh lowers his head and remains silent for a while*

From a roleplay point of view, this is realistic in my opinion. But it turned out that it is more fun to work together, build something up. Interaction mainly based on hostility does not keep a group together.

And as we all know, the most successful criminals are the organised ones, and they are the real pain in the ass of our societies, not the guys stealing wallets for drugs.

The restructuring is the result from our own (bad) experience and I think it is not too unrealistic. But who is perfect? ;) Go on with giving us input.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 05:42:40 pm by Orgonwukh »

Sangwa

  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2083
  • Chars: Morwen and Gartheiz
    • View Profile
Re: [Guild] The Outlaws
« Reply #52 on: April 16, 2008, 04:21:16 am »
Quote
And I don't see why its a bad thing for the outlaws to work together and help each other out we are all outcast together not all of have necessarily broke laws but have been cast out by society for not fitting and following all the rules or meeting all the high standards
Like I said, if your objective is to form an outcast society, than you are certainly heading the right way! I think it'll be very interesting.

However if your objective is to have a successful criminal organization, I doubt it'll work much like that because crime will come at an expense, since you have an economic division to protect. This means that the military will spark enemy reactions and then have to not only protect themselves, but protect everyone else.

One of the flaws I think the structure suffers from is the emphasis of an Intelligence division. While intelligence is required, I think it is, like magic, just an addition to the outlaws and not a sector as important as Economy or Military (meaning it can be included in one or both of these.) Having Intelligence as a division means that you'll have a hierarchic chain in this division, which means having several members within... In an outlaw society I can't see these people being too useful, unless they are also working on the economy or military divisions.

To this effect I'd separate the guild into "Active" and "Passive" (Society, Guerilla; Collectors, Contenders; etc.) further simplifying the structure and not wasting a whole division on intelligence.
A 3 level hierarchy sounds best for both divisions: Guerilla would have base ranks like Marauder, Renegade (Mage) and Rogue (spy, thief, assassin), then a superior rank for each (respectively Ringleader, Heretic and Agent) and then a top rank for the council of leaders you usually have.
I think that in the field the most probable situations will either require no direct leadership or will require only one member leading a small squad. This makes this simple hierarchic structure close to the best.
You'd do the same for the Society part: Auctioneer (searches for merchants, prices, while also dealing with auctions and stuff), Collector (mines, hunts) and Craftsman (smelts, smiths, etc.) then the next level of, respectively, Dealer, Foreman and Artisan then the council.

This way your intelligence is divided into two divisions making spying harder for enemies (if it's divided into two guilds, then an intruder will come in contact with only half of the spies you have and these spies can be thieves or scouts or just auctioneers. [further confusing enemy spying attempts]). It'll also make espionage something that may be backed up with productive work, since Rogue also counts for thievery and stealth assassinating. The spies working outside your guild will then have stable, secure help from within.

I also think it gives a realistic feel to the Outlaws, since that's how outcast societies usually work (take Robin Hood. They had the people that robbed and people that stayed home cooking, farming, hiding, etc.)

Quote
And as we all know, the most successful criminals are the organised ones, and they are the real pain in the ass of our societies, not the guys stealing wallets for drugs.
And they usually have pretty simple structures (Godfather, ringleaders, thugs; two divisions: fronts and crime [espionage is usually bought or included as a task of a criminal].)

I hope you can make use of my opinion! I'd love to see how it goes!
Disclaimer: This is my opinion and I can be reasoned with. I'm probably right, though.

Join the Dark Empire!

Orgonwukh

  • Hydlaa Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 254
    • View Profile
Re: [Guild] The Outlaws
« Reply #53 on: April 16, 2008, 05:41:04 am »
Thanks for your opinions, Sangwa. You made some good points there.

However, when thinking about guild structure, we always have to find a tradeoff between realism and operability.
Total realism was the 'bunch of thugs' structure, that just did not work. We are stuck with 9 ranks, which are too few in my opinion. We also thought about giving special ranks which would be distinguished by the number of GP given. We once tested the multi-guild approach, too, but the information exchange suffered from that. I admit, our IG organisation might be not 100% realistic, but this is not our main goal (which is to have fun :P ).
Concerning the intelligence division: The reason for this is mainly OOC: There are players who do not train or mine at all. Those are the players with a high rate of interaction with other players, and hence are the best guys to collect any kind of information.

We continuously discuss matters in our guild forums, do polls, collect ideas. From what we all recognised from this, the recent structure changes were a success. Our guild members are developing new ideas daily, work more on their own, become more creative. However, this is mainly an internal success. Concering the interaction with non-guildies, we need the highly appreciated feedback from the community.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2008, 05:43:54 am by Orgonwukh »

Sangwa

  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2083
  • Chars: Morwen and Gartheiz
    • View Profile
Re: [Guild] The Outlaws
« Reply #54 on: April 16, 2008, 05:46:57 am »
Good to know. As a side note, and this is for every organization that splits into several guilds, while the PS Team hasn't been kind enough to make Alliances something useful (i.e. it's currently just for people to see), the group chat allows an inter-guild chat option.

I think splitting into at least two guilds is a needed addition to your current structure... If only to make spying difficult for enemies. That might not be too concerning for you guys though. It depends on your priorities.
Disclaimer: This is my opinion and I can be reasoned with. I'm probably right, though.

Join the Dark Empire!

Izzabella

  • Hydlaa Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 442
    • View Profile
    • Outlaws
Re: [Guild] The Outlaws
« Reply #55 on: April 16, 2008, 08:53:39 am »
We tried that once, we had a sister guild when the outlaws split about 8months ago. it went badly it seemed both guilds wanted all the power...and communication was hard keep in mind we are outlaws ;P well and they are still out there as far as I know...just no longer activity playing PS... :(

lol I dunno really what went bad there, this was before I became and Elder or the leader and I was actually on vacation when when the guild split and not really sure what happened.

Sangwa

  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2083
  • Chars: Morwen and Gartheiz
    • View Profile
Re: [Guild] The Outlaws
« Reply #56 on: April 16, 2008, 10:23:09 am »
You just need a close knit leadership. Without one you're doomed to fail anyway, so make your bets on the division again I say! ^^

Nah, it seems like this is really working for you, following "wuk"'s words. *grins* Time will tell if you can move to other structures or not.
Disclaimer: This is my opinion and I can be reasoned with. I'm probably right, though.

Join the Dark Empire!

Joemama246

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 74
    • View Profile
Re: [Guild] The Outlaws
« Reply #57 on: August 21, 2008, 07:02:32 pm »
Man, i thought this represented me in my fullest, but I can't find a member!

RichardShru

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 82
    • View Profile
Re: [Guild] The Outlaws
« Reply #58 on: August 21, 2008, 07:06:55 pm »
Try going to their forums, maybe they'lll arrange something with ya :)

Joemama246

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 74
    • View Profile
Re: [Guild] The Outlaws
« Reply #59 on: August 21, 2008, 07:38:06 pm »
now I heard they were banned?