Wipe

[Jonerian]

Okay, I can also "proudly" say, that I read the whole thread  Which means a lot, since now it is 7 in the morning where I live..

Anyways - at first my opinion was, that we don't need a wipe unless the ecomy and or the skill system gets fixed. The question is not really if I could live with a wipe, since my char is only half a year old. I wouldn't care. For me it is a question of what I think is useful for the development of the game.
Like I said in some other thread: it doesn't need any wipe or trial and error system to fix the ecnomy. You can calculate the whole system on the board. Still, if the last wipe was 3 years ago (When that is correct.. I wouldn't know), then it is a real big mess to fix bugs in a really messy environment. Lots of chars that are somewhat messed because of old bugs/features,. whatever are somewhat like messy code. You don't have to rewrite it, but it can surely make things a lot easier.

So:
If all development departments agree, that it helps development at this point: Do it.

Like sb. said: The devs DON'T need our permission for the wipe. The thing is just, that the Devs want to know what people thing about wipes in generell to have an impression what impact a wipe has on the player base and if they will loose nearly all testers or so.

My Answer:
Yes, wipe if needed. I won't stop playing and I will try to explore the game in the state it is when I have my clean char.
I would even be okay with a wipe of accounts, but I guess for now (or soon(tm)) it is enough to just wipe stats ind inventars to get a clean picture again.


@some others:
I guess most of the players are quite young. It seems quite weird that even there are so many people here that are afraid of change.
aggregated quote: "I have grown so fond of my char."
Well, doing something new, going somewhere else etc. can be fun and should be tried. Being afraid of change is normal, but you should be able to start something new anyways. If this new thing doesn't include PS anymore, because you realized, that you were not interested in a game that is in development and wipes chars, that's fine. Nothing wrong with it. This is no reason to not make the wipe.
Having fun during the development is good, but it shouldn't stop further development. This game can get a lot better.

[Quin]

My vote: yes

My great hope is that it would also come with an overhaul of the leveling system and a balancing of the character types.  Would the new systems have to be perfect and extensively tested before the wipe, heck no, but give them a big boot in the right direction (who cares if you overshoot a little).  If the Devs could do some quick and dirty number crunching so that crafters could level by crafting and a lvl 20 red mage could kill the same mob with the same ease as a warrior at lvl 20 in swords, I think it would go far in mollifying the masses when the wipe did occur. (and I really wouldn't mind if you wiped out the whole PP system while you were at it)  As far as the economy, I don't have a clue.  I've read alot of ideas on these forums, but don't really know how any would work (pick one and try it, if it doesn't work, you can always wipe again ).

In the end, after a wipe, Quin would still be Quin, he'd still have the same backstory (so what if I have to retype his description) he'd still know the same people (even if some don't return) he'd still be out questing (maybe finding one of the other ways into the winch) climbing places he shouldn't climb, and poking daggers at creatures that could kill him in the blink of an eye.  Yeah, it took me two years to get where I'm at, and will probably take me three more to get back to the same levels and shinies.  But pull out the firehoses and blast the crud out of the corners, I say!

[bilbous]

I think a partial wipe is kind of pointless. I thought so the last couple times it happened and still think so. What would make a full wipe more palatable to people would be to give the first character, or any subsequent character if there are no characters, on the account 50 skill/stat levels to assign at will.

This would be of benefit to the game for several reasons:

• players would have more incentive to remain as they would lose less or gain in some cases
• various levels of expertise would be available immediately providing a greater range of testing
• ardent role players would be able to have characters that better reflect their back story

I'm sure there are others but it is late here.

[Nathalie]

What would make it worth it for you to have a wipe?

I think if the developers would have changed/improved the way we can train and level up in such a way that we don't feel like we're doing the same things we did earlier all over again, a wipe would be more acceptable. So for example if new skills are available to train in or there are new ways to train earlier stats, or new places to explore while doing so or entirely different NPC's to fight. Basically something that brings a fresh breeze to the game and makes us excited to train once again.

Until then, I wholeheartedly vote no.

[Zakrei]

You don't need to restart your character's history.

I wouldn't be able to resist the temptation of doing something completely different from Zakrei, if i would have to start from scratch
No, no, after a wipe, his mom will pick him up, he will get into trouble for hanging out in the tavern, possible no desert after lunch because of that, and both will head home, with the sun setting behind them :-)

[sanxx]

PLEASE........no wipe........i have spent so long building Sanxxy up.....to loose all now would  be so sad...................

[Sen]

Just a quick thought between:

Why not wiping everything _except_ the character data (stats)? (Guild houses are few yet and can be given back)

Sen

[Waylander]

Okay, people, it's really not that bad and, even if it were, I wouldn't care about it

Changes are made to the system quite often.  Maybe they don't directly affect leveling but, they do change it somewhat.  The large amount of new quests has made that a feasible alternative to killing many, many rats when it comes to leveling up.  And with that comes the need to balance and check bugs.  The best way to check bugs is to have players use the features and maxed out characters don't use too many features.

And sure, the argument "Some features are only used by maxed out characters" is valid but, many people will max out in just a few days.

It's late so I may not be as coherent as usual but, the point stands:  Wipes are needed from time to time and no character (Aside from mine) is more important than the game. 

[Linina]

I voted no.

[Meredee]

I'm against the wipe. I mostly RP, I trained only in between and it took me 3 months to be contented with my stats. Now I can run as far as I can, I can carry a lot, I can heal myself in a reasonable time and if I need few thousands tria it takes me only half an hour to get it... and I simply don't want to loose it.

I don't care if there are powerlevelers, whose only goal is to train their chars to max. If they want it - let them do it. I don't have too much contact with those people anyway and they don't bother me. I can't understand why so many people think that some wipe will scare them off from a game. Even if some will go away, new ones will come in a week or two.

I hope the wipe will not come any time soon.

[Zwenze]

...
And sure, the argument "Some features are only used by maxed out characters" is valid but, many people will max out in just a few days.
...

It took me over one year to max out crystal way magics. I could have done it faster without roleplaying but maxing a char out in just a few days ... is in my opinion not possible by honest players. After a full wipe the spells that require higher skilled mages for example will not be tested for months in my opinion. Same is true for things that need really high levels in crafting for example.

IMHO if a char is maxed out after a few days the char belongs to a dev who is testing stuff and using his dev power or the char belongs to a cheater who discovered a serious bug. I estimated that maxing out crystal way costs rough about 3 million tria and consumes 100000 progression points. And this leaves out secondary stats and skills that are needed to gain this amount of progression points and tria. And that is just one skill. Other players who played frequent and often needed months to get serious levels in crafting.

[Piker]

...
And sure, the argument "Some features are only used by maxed out characters" is valid but, many people will max out in just a few days.
...

It took me over one year to max out crystal way magics. I could have done it faster without roleplaying but maxing a char out in just a few days ... is in my opinion not possible by honest players. After a full wipe the spells that require higher skilled mages for example will not be tested for months in my opinion. Same is true for things that need really high levels in crafting for example.

IMHO if a char is maxed out after a few days the char belongs to a dev who is testing stuff and using his dev power or the char belongs to a cheater who discovered a serious bug. I estimated that maxing out crystal way costs rough about 3 million tria and consumes 100000 progression points. And this leaves out secondary stats and skills that are needed to gain this amount of progression points and tria. And that is just one skill. Other players who played frequent and often needed months to get serious levels in crafting.

I completely agree with Zwenze, no-one can max a skill in a few days, it is impossible. It took me a year and a half to max crystal, and about 6 months to do sword. And this was leveling quite hard at times. And i would also say that Zwenze was conservative on the estimated tria I would have put the cost at 4+ million

And back to the topic, could i cope with a wipe, yes, without a doubt, it may be a hard pill to swallow but i would get over it. What does get me worried though is the possibility of losing my chars and their histories, they mean more to me than stats. Yes i could just restart them after the wipe, but there are sneaky char stealers out there i tell ya *waves his fist*

[grunior]

From a developers point of view, I don't care if all of our players leave as long as the wipe was to improve the game. We'll always get more players. At the stage we're at, what matters is developers. Players matter more once we're feature complete (the basics anyway).
As I said, eventually we'll get to the point where we'll have no choice but to wipe (selectively), so it's going to happen (more than once most likely, for different areas) in future.

"We'll always get more players" ? What kind of attitude is that? Sounds like a C.E.O. talking about closing some factories due to shareholder value: "We will always find some peons elsewhere."
Have you ever considered that both of us, players and developers, need each other and should treat the other with some respect?

But now "on topic":
I would have no problem with any kind of wipe, if there was a clear explanation of the reasons. As Quin posted:

My great hope is that it would also come with an overhaul of the leveling system and a balancing of the character types. [...] 

I totally and wholeheartedly agree!
But, stop!
No one tells us what kind of improvements are (or will be) done. I can't vote until i have some information about what would change. There are many changes that could be a good reason for a wipe, but i haven't found one in this thread till now. To clean up the database? If i want to clean up a database, i clean it up - i don't wipe it, do i?

As a result this comes out with two factions arguing about something they haven't got any real information about. So, please give out some hints why a wipe would be needed and what could be improved by it. Then I'll vote.


And now to the funny bones:

Roleplay, and your time will never be lost.

To roleplay a crafter doesn't make sense unless you can actually craft a thing, does it? Even in a RP world i prefer some people doing things that go beyond hanging around in bars or hitting each others head. At the moment one has to invest a lot of time to get to a point where this is actually possible. And it is part of the roleplay, isn't it? And it would be lost.

Grunior Grindrock.

[Vornne]

My two cents or two hundred dollars worth, of words at least

I know it's incorrect to split all planeshift players into two groups, but I'm trying distinguish the major attributes of each of the sides in this poll, many people will have a bit of each.

First we have the people who do the leveling, questing, crafting, mining, fighting, and so on... these people and are rewarded by things stored on the server.

Then we have the people who don't do much of the above, because it mostly bores them... these people only play to tell stories, act them out, create organizations, try to influence other players.... the reward here is not stored on the server, it is in the minds of those involved.

The first group dislike wipes, because it ruins the whole point of the game for them, having to start from scratch... they don't get much enjoyment out of pressing dig/fighting rogues/smelting stock, they do it so others will see they are better, and in the hope that they will find new things.

The second group don't really care about wipes, it hardly affects them either way...

I would say there is a third group, most of the devs, who don't level or RP, maybe because both started to bore them, maybe because they enjoy creating new things for others more.

My question for the second and third groups: maybe you don't mind wipes because you don't actually play this game? OK, maybe that is overdoing it - though I would put myself mostly in those last two groups, I don't like leveling much, I only explore and quest a bit now and then. You might say, "but this is still in development, you should not worry about your levels" and so on... and I agree with you. Why are there so many people who play this game as if it is almost finished, and like most MMORPGs, where one of the main points of it is to gain levels? Because that is the way it is advertised... look at planeshift.it, from reading it I would think new people get the impression that this is a mostly finished game - I don't think many people read the forums, even if they did read the wipe warning, most players probably don't really believe it would happen, they have never actually experienced one, and don't want to think it could happen.

So, here are some suggestions: make it much more clear on all the sites, maybe even in the installer or tutorial, that this is a game in development and wipes and resets can happen at any time - and then wipe often, as others have said. This would make high levels impossible, so I suggest making everything much easier, and run it more like a test server.

One alternative would be to start another server with a laanx database, and make everything easy - the only problem is that secret stuff from laanx could be revealed quicker - so only the things that are common knowledge would be added, kind of like the svn database, but much more playable. This server could be wiped as often as needed, would suit the testers like me, and would probably suit the RPers because of the low barrier to entry. Then the main server could be left to rot until most players give up on it to try the new stuff, and then update it.

Well as for the vote, I'd say no at this point. I think wipes are good, but I have not seen that the game has been changed significantly enough to make it worthwhile, for example removing PPs, or reconciling the money it is possible to make mining or looting with the settings amounts for a days work. But, I don't know everything, there may be huge changes ready to apply, it's just I can't imagine how, all devs seem so busy

Bear in mind I don't actually play PS much anymore, I might be out of touch, and I don't really enjoy the contemporary MMORPG... I would prefer the game be targeted more towards one of the play acting side, the number showoff side, or the fighting game side, but that's OK. I realize I could be wrong with a lot of my points, I'm open to being corrected.

The main point I would like to make: what about a dedicated testing server?

[koori]

I'll vote no.
Just because my char took a long time to train, and that if it is wiped i'll never try to train it up again. That's an egotistic point of view that i think i share with some other players, but i really care for my char.
On the other hand, I understand a wipe would enhance RP. Training without any further goal than "being strong" is somehow pointless and not funny in my opinion. But try roleplaying someone who has a lot of experience in fighting with a char that would lose against a rat. For me a wipe would mean more than 2 years of playing erased in a second. Even if i love RPing (i really do) i don't think this is a good idea.