Magic - How is it used in Yliakum?

[Garile]

I have been thinking about magic. It seems to be all around us in Yliakum and almmost every character has atleast some basic ranks in magic making it very comon.

However in Rp it's used rather differently by a lot of people. A lot of that has to do that we aren't really sure what limits there are to magic and how exactly it works, but also influences from outside.

Now the main questions I have been asking to roleplay magic as correctly as possible in my eyes are

1. What are the limits of magic. What powers magic and what can magic do with what amount of power. One answer I found here in descriptions seems to be that the energy itself comes from our body itself. So this would mean if our body is in bad shape and so it's energy drained and disrupted we wouldn't be able to do magic even if our mind is still focussed. On the other hand it seems things like the crystal can be used as power for spells aswell reading the "creation" story. A question ofcourse would be if mortals would be able to find and/or use such suplements of power.

2. how would magic be used in everyday life if it's comon. If everyone is a magicuser to some extant wouldn't that mean magic would be used for simple things aswell? wuldn't that mean that magic is used to help you do your job better and gain an edge on you competeters by giving that swords that extra sharp edge or extra hard metal composition? Or even just to make your food taste a little better? Wouldn't it be used to make your life easier with things like washing clothes and such chores?

Just think of how civilization right now uses technology and is it really farfetched to think that if everyone can use some magic that we wouldn't have shady Merlin like people but move more towards experts who use their magic to make a living by providing a service others need or that makes other peoples life easier?

[Phinehas]

For your first question, I've always based magic-wielding off of the will, because that's what makes sense. The stats that magic are based off of don't all seem to really work... Charisma? That's just strange. It's an interesting question though. I'd be glad to see it answered by Xillix.

To answer your second question, I could be wrong, but I don't think that magic is supposed to be quite so common as it is at the moment.

[Zan]

Personally I'm not a big fan of magic on PS. Part of the reason is that it's one of the things that is very heavily based on grinding ... another part is the lack of limitations when it does get used in roleplays.

If I use magic in roleplays I make a point of only using spells that are actually in-game. Sure I'll write it out all fancy and things with nicer special effects in my wording than the mechanics often show. The spell itself and the effect it has will be taken from an actual spell. I find that the best way to things reasonable. Magic is a subject that has a big impact on the imagination of people. It's a concept in fantasy that is often shown as an extremely versatile source of power. Obviously it's also a very easy way to make a powerful character. Just give them some unique magic ability and we're off.

I'm not critising everyone who does this, it can be done and it is done well by some people ... just not my cup of tea.
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[Garile]

hmm yes that was what I was thinking aswell. That magic perhaps isn't supposed to be as freely as it seems to be right now. Knowing the basics how magic works and moreover what would be comon and what should be impossible. definately improves roelplaying I think.

[Jonerian]

Charisma? That's just strange.

i actually think Charisma is a great stat for doing dark magic. The devil itself is supposed to be tempting and I see things like that as important in dark magic. And the Crystal way is the exact opposite. Quite logical for me, that it also uses charisma. It is also quite important that you can't use Charisma (or INT or WIL) in adjacent or friendly ways.
Short: I really like that thinking about the magic.

[Phinehas]

I agree with Zan to the extent that I think most people don't use magic well. However, I've always ignored in-game mechanics for magic, at least in PS, and I don't think anyone can accuse me of trying to make an all-powerful character just so I can run around and be a godmodder.

It's not practical to use the in-game mechanics to base your magic RP off of, though. The mechanics for magic right now suck. There are hardly any spells. Much like a thief has to ignore the fact that he can't actually mug, pickpocket, or accost anyone, nor can he climb walls to get away, dive through windows, stab someone in the back someone with his dagger, or slink around in the shadows, so a wizard has to ignore the fact that magic is pathetically weak with in-game mechanics, and there are too few spells.

If it's announced that magic is supposed to be weak within PS, then I would understand, but that has never particularly been my impression.

I do agree with Zan, though, in his complaints that "it's one of the things that is very heavily based on grinding ... another part is the lack of limitations when it does get used in roleplays."

It annoys the crap out of me to see some of the RPs that have been going around for the last while in which everyone and their brother seems to be possessed of surprising. unnatural, and nigh undefeatable magic power. They claim that they're not invincible, but they force other people to create characters just as powerful to defeat their own, and set a bad trend.

[Zan]

Phinehas, the mechanics for just about everything suck right now.

[ThomPhoenix]

I think the magic system in PlaneShift and the way it handles attirbutes, like charisma, is pretty good. It's think it's true however that the process of translating the concept to game mechanics has gone somewhat wrong. The cost of magic training and what you gain by it in means of different spells and spell power has been severely lacking.

The number of spells has majorly increased recently, so that is improving, but the cost/power ratio is way off compared to swords/axe/dagger. It would also be nice if there are more non combat-related spells.

[Under the moon]

Charisma + magic = NO!

I have always said that. Charisma is a personality trait, like Humor. You don't see Humor being used in casting spells. Charisma is the ability to gather people to you. Can it affect the outcome of a magic spell? Maybe. Consistantly? No.

Pretty people are more charismatic than ugly people of the same personality. Does beauty now play a role in magic as well? Will a model be able to out magic a quasimoto because he is better looking, and therefore has more charisma?

Charisma has nothing to do with the casting of magic. It is simply how others perceive you. A man alone in the woods has Zero charisma. Charisma only works with other people around. What could it work for, or aid with? Charming spells (mind control)? Maybe. Who are you going to charm? Other players? No. NPCs? Doubtful. Creatures? That is a joke. Creatures do not perceive charisma in people, so it would be useless.

Maybe courage spells. Make your group feel good about themselves so they can fight better. Happy time. I can just hear the battle cries now. "Need CG buff now!"

Dark Way spells. Oh really. You are going to use dark magic on people and things, yet stay highly charismatic to others? Maybe to dark characters. But then your spells would have little effect on good guys who do not see you as charismatic. That brings me to my next point.

Let's take a look at the ridiculousness of charisma itself. Charisma is NOT a constant. It is how others see you. You may have high charisma with one person, yet the guy next to him will think you are a complete fool. Yet the charisma stat treats them both the same when it comes to spells. That is godmoding MY character into say I see you as a charismatic person.

Ya, sure, level your character's charisma all the way up. Anyone who can actually roleplay a character with maxxed charisma is a god in my book. How exactly do you 'train' it anyways? Spend some money and have people like you more? Is that really going to make your spells work better?  Think of the person you can't stand the most in the game, then remember this.

Any idiot can max charisma in the game, and use that to affect your character.

[Prolix]

@ UTM:   I cannot agree with your evaluation of charisma.   It need not be a positive effect as people are just as apt or even more likely to stare at a horrible train wreck as a beautiful panorama. Charisma is the ability to capture another's attention and hold it. It does not need to be pretty. Have you never met someone who let their looks open all the doors for them but just doesn't seem to be there when you try to talk to them? Rasputin wasn't pretty nor was Jim Jones, Charlie Manson, Mick Jagger, Rodney Dangerfield, Steven Tyler, and a host of others that became notable (or notorious) personages.

Of course, you complain about training charisma and ignore everything else. Perhaps you would prefer that  the stats worked more like D&D where they only get altered by aging and magic. It is a design choice to have stats training and the way it works is not great but I would make it so that there was a lower range for the stats and training was a lot more difficult. It is also a design choice for there to be stat modifiers to skills. Given that there are three physical stats to modify the physical skills, the three meta-physical stats balance the system. It does not really matter what they are called or how they are described it is their game function that is important. If you do not like them you are free to completely ignore the game mechanics and define you character on any terms you can get people to accept. Nobody can see what your stats are.

You have this big bugaboo about charisma I have heard over and over again. It is true that you have previously suggested alternate ways to work it but IIRC they called for removing the meta stats completely and putting nothing in their place or just changing the names/descriptions.

The game mechanics are for interacting with the game -- you are responsible for what happens when interacting with the players.

[eldoth_terevan]

Look at how many definitions of "charismatic" actually include magical or religious references. Charisma is more than just looking good or getting laughs. These stats were important in table-top RPG, and have been developed and argued in many different ways. Even if you come up with an alternate system of stats, they will mimic the D&D system. And if D&D rules did apply as was mentioned, it would be near-impossible to increase stats at all -- and there were good reasons for this.

http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Acharismatic&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

[ThomPhoenix]

Charisma is not how people perceive you, UtM. Charisma is how you make other people perceive you. It's a power of influence on the minds of others. When someone looks at you and talks to you, their perception of you is created by, amongst others, your charisma.

This dictionary entry might be interesting to you:

Main Entry:
    cha·ris·ma
Function:
    noun
Etymology:
    Greek, favor, gift, from charizesthai to favor, from charis grace; akin to Greek chairein to rejoice — more at yearn
1 : a personal magic of leadership arousing special popular loyalty or enthusiasm for a public figure (as a political leader)
2 : a special magnetic charm or appeal <the charisma of a popular actor> 

Is it a coincidence that a dictionary happens to describe charisma as "magnetic" or "magic"?
No.

[Under the moon]

I don't care what it is defined as. What it really is is what matters. Charisma is not magic. It is not spirital. It is a collection of personality traits that -as I said in my very first statement- Charisma is the ability to gather people to you. It is not in any way a single aspect of your personality.

And NO, it is not how you make people perceive you. It is the combination of two or more persons' personalities interacting with each other. Like puzzle pieces, some personalities with fit together great, and one person will say they find the other very charismatic. Others will not fit together well at all, and one person will not even want to be around the other. You can NOT quantify this variable unless you put in both sides of the equation! Two very charismatic people are not going to find each other as charismatic as others who are the 'lowly masses'. Someone who can't stand another person is not going to find them as charismatic as other, and may find them to be a complete baboon. Stupid people may find a person very charismatic, while intelligent people will not.

George Bush.

Do I understand your point of view? Yes. But I find it flat and unenlightened. I mentioned the positive side of charisma in my examples because that is what people are most familiar with. I guaranty I understand both sides of charisma far better than both of you, given your arguments. Do not assume to try to give me definitions. I stand by what I said, that good looking people will almost always be seen as more charismatic than those that do not look as good, given the same personality. Even that rule can be broken.

Thom, your own definitions carry the demise of your argument. Both hold the word 'popular'. Look up the definition for that.

And I will also stand by with everything I have said about players and mental stats. No one should ever be able to have stats beyond their ability to roleplay. No one here has the ability to play a character with 'max' charisma. Saying this stat is not to be used in RP is ludicrous. That is creating two systems and worlds in the game.

Eventually, I will see charisma removed as a static stat, or I will quit.

[Velh Krome]

To me charisma has an impact on if I will still consider one pretty after I had known that one better. That way one may be ugly to me on first sight, but by high charisma gain a pleasant appearance sooner. Physical beauty (if its more than symmetrie) wont be the solid base that defines one's charisma.

It may use as a parenting attribute if magics were like fun fair's tricks: To be able to fake supernatural facts successfully by blinding people with your way to act and im-/express. But since magic in PS is based on real energy, charisma doesnt make much sense to me (same as linking wikipedia-source-info =P).

[Zan]

Personally I don't like intelligence any more than charisma. Both are character traits. Just like a player with little charisma can't play a very charismatic character .. a player with a limited intelligence can't play a very intelligent character. So in my eyes neither of them work well as stats. I say replace them both with a stat called 'magic'. That stat can then represent the skill a character has in casting spells in general. It works for all magic ways and increases mana as well as spell range, damage or duration.

It would be possible to replace the physical portion of the charisma attribute with some untrainable stat to represent someone's beauty .. but I really don't see the point of something like that. Use your descriptions to project your character's appearance and let others decide the attraction of it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder after all.