Author Topic: Magic - How is it used in Yliakum?  (Read 7889 times)

Under the moon

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Re: Magic - How is it used in Yliakum?
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2008, 07:09:19 pm »
Exactly.

ThomPhoenix

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Re: Magic - How is it used in Yliakum?
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2008, 09:28:26 pm »
I do not agree with your arguments, although I recognize parts of it such as the fact that training charisma is a little bit awkward. I especially dislike you calling my arguments flat and unenlightened.
However, I know you've set your mind and I'm not going to sway you.

So that's that.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2008, 09:32:03 pm by ThomPhoenix »
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Waylander

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Re: Magic - How is it used in Yliakum?
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2008, 10:06:12 pm »
It's a bit arrogant to assume you know how magic works.  For all we know the trait that affects Dark Way the most could be height, or likability.  Perhaps your power to use the Dark Way depends on how others perceive you.

I do somewhat agree with removing Cha, Int and Will but, mainly because people will never roleplay those stats (if you roll a low int person you probably won't roleplay an idiot ;) ).  But, it's magic, what do we know?
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Duraza

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Re: Magic - How is it used in Yliakum?
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2008, 11:45:41 pm »
I'd have to say I'd agree with Waylander in the fact that we don't really know how magic is supposed to work (at least some of us I guess.). However when it comes to the fact of Charisma and Intellegence I'd have to agree with UTM. I see where the arguments are coming from (especially prolix's) but the fact is the need for charisma to be applied is more for a table top rp than for ps.

In table top rps each person is more so assigned a role. You don't get to choose or level your stats, you just get them. If your the evil mastermind you could be super smart yet physically weak. If your the hero you could be physically charasmatic but a dumb brute. If you the dansel in distress you could be mentally charismatic and physically but no have no way to protect yourself. In ps thats not the case. Sure strength, weapon skill, and magic skill are things you should be able to train. However your charisma and intellegence should fit the roll you are trying to play and no one is telling you that role.

In other words, from what we do know about magic right now, who says I couldn't be both mentally and physically uncharismatic and yet a master of the dark way? It's silly to think that how attractive I am to people (regardless of whether its physical or personality wise) should effect my magic. Of course, in ps up could be down and I could be completely wrong. However does this mean I should be able to level my charisma or intellegence? Sure, I say its possible to gradually get smarter by learning/reading but firstly many people rp what they want regardless of the level and secondly I think I should choose how I should rp my character. If I'm a complete idiot irl and I get a high level intellegence character how good do you think my rp will be? It will suck. Same works with charisma regardless of the definition. If I have no charisma irl yet I get a super high charisma character how will anyone rp with me? If I try to base my character on my stats but really have no idea how to rp it than no.

Things like strength and endurance are different. I don't need to be strong irl to rp strength. However I think I might want to be charismatic or at least know how someone with high charisma would act to rp it because from the sounds of it everyone disagreeing would rather rp by straight stats, something that may just lead to a lot of bad rp.
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Xillix Queen of Fools

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Re: Magic - How is it used in Yliakum?
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2008, 01:11:23 am »
I would step in and have my say but I am curious how the rest of you feel.

Prolix

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Re: Magic - How is it used in Yliakum?
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2008, 08:02:32 am »
I am curious here, just how big a tree can you uproot with your 200 strength using only your hands? How many boulders can you stand having piled on you with your 200 endurance? How many arrows can you dodge with your 200 agility? Who is to determine the appropriateness of how you role play these numbers, they are just as meaningless as the metaphysical stats as far as I am concerned. Why is it a lemur can even be 1/2 as strong as a kran? Is a kran with a 200 strength stronger than a lemur with the same strength? Surely his larger frame and silicon based physique would allow him greater feats unless maybe lemurs are made from nanotubes...

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Re: Magic - How is it used in Yliakum?
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2008, 08:55:33 am »
I'm with Zan, UtM, and Duraza. Also, I think that only intelligent people should allowed to play wizard's. That way we can be elitist like we should be, and keep all the lesser scum out of something they don't really know anything about. :D

Waylander

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Re: Magic - How is it used in Yliakum?
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2008, 09:31:49 am »
There isn't really much more to say to this.  The simple fact that people will ignore their mental characteristics when it comes down to roleplay (I'm guilty of this but only because it's impossible to level Nurahk to level 3000 int/cha ;) ) makes me believe that they should be removed, changed.

Magic, at least from how I see it, would be restricted not necessarily to those who are intelligent (though that would be a limit) but, to those who can get the glyphs...  Merchants and Rich people, perhaps adventurers.  The stereotypical old, grey beard would have a hard time.

I stick with my previous comment though, unless you can point me at a doc that states how magic works (which wouldn't surprise me), there's no reason why charisma shouldn't determine Dark Way aptitude.  The question is whether or not Charisma should really be a stat at this point.

Prolix: A Kran with 200 strength is as strong as a Lemur with 200 strength due to game mechanics.  In the future I imagine Kran will have a high strength limit.
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Re: Magic - How is it used in Yliakum?
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2008, 05:54:28 pm »
I really do not think anyone can play anything they are not.
Certainly someone who is clumsy will always be bumping into walls and getting stuck in the geometry despite maxed out agility just because they cannot steer their character properly so agility has to go. Someone with low endurance may not be able to handle all the steering or could develop carpal tunnel syndrome or all the poor role play so endurance has to go. Someone with too much strength will surely break their keyboard too often and rather be out pumping iron than to bother with this silly game so strength has to go. I really doubt there is anyone playing the game who has maxed out their personal capacities so that eliminates all stats that can be maxed. So what is left? Remove all the stats and skills. Now since we are talking about realistic play most of the races have to go because they are not realistic -- no cat people here on earth nor rock people or demon or flying reptilians.

You are playing a fantasy game so if you cannot suspend your disbelief long enough to accept the game mechanics then why are you still here? Really the character stats are not all that original but they are not all that bad either. Perhaps you would prefer to replace them with these two: physical aptitude and magical aptitude. You have strange ideas I do not want to subscribe to your newsletter. :-[

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Re: Magic - How is it used in Yliakum?
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2008, 06:50:42 pm »
Prolix, then tell me .. what effect does intelligence and charisma have on the game aside from casting spells?

Other stats serve several purposes, right now those two can be replaced by a single magical aptitude stat .. as you called it. Intelligence doesn't let your character complete quests more easily and charisma doesn't make you more beautiful. Players do all the things those stats should be doing and I don't see that changing much.

Besides your endurance example is rather poor, anything after that just made me chuckle. :P Exaggerating things into the extreme isn't usually a good way to win a discussion if you ask me.
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eldoth_terevan

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Re: Magic - How is it used in Yliakum?
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2008, 06:54:41 pm »
Just because a stat is not used currently in the game programming does not mean that it is useless. Or had nobody noticed this is a beta of a game?

Game mechanics are required. Not having them produces a grey area where the only recourse for players is either referring to a GM to resolve disputes, or somehow working it out on their own. You may be able to remove certain numbers or stats from the players interface, but they cannot be removed from the game. These stats and numbers will never be "original" because the use for them is the same, no matter what kind of RPG it is.

The constant references to table top D&D are still valid because TSR worked out these systems long ago based upon logical problem solving within a game environment, using elements and ideas that are naturally common to all games that came after. So did quite a few others, including Steve Jackson's GURP series. There are just so many different ways you can refer to character stats, but the need of them in a game is the same as any other game of this type.

This is because these games are not unique; you can change skins, wording, themes, music, but the mathematical relationships between the components of data and the problems that arise from creating a system are going to mirror every game produced back to the beige Blackmoor D&D editions of long, long ago.

The only difference between PS implementation and older D&D is that in a proper table top campaign the GM would enforce the players playing their characters as they were rolled. Under no circumstance would players be allowed to enforce their own arbitrary rules of RP, progression or conduct on the game environment. D&D was a true RPG because you had no choice, at least if you had a good GM, you had to roleplay the character.

What a GM did and the in game actions of the GM had to have consistency with the ruleset otherwise the players would call you on it. There was plenty of leeway for interpreting the rules, but arguments were resolved quickly. In PS the arguments go on and on, cycling over the same ground every year. All these strange ideas for "new" things to somehow get past game mechanics are useless and this is not going to change. He who does not learn from the past repeats it anyway.

Strict enforcement of adherence to game mechanics is frowned upon by some elitists because it would negate the ability to have one set of rules for the elite, and another set of rules for the other players. This is what we essentially have now, and is proved in the fact that RPs degenerate into arguments most of the time. I say the same law should apply equally to all characters, whether they like like it or not. Having a strict system of game mechanics that applies to all characters is highly important, removing stats would just be going backwards. Flame on, but thanks for reading.

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Re: Magic - How is it used in Yliakum?
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2008, 07:27:57 pm »
Well said Eldoth!

Zan, at the moment intelligence and charisma have at least one other affect and they are required at a certain level to equip some magical swords. Perhaps that is not sufficiently different from magic, though. I do imagine that they will be used for some crafts. It may be harder to decide which skills charisma will apply to but it will likely be significant in musical skills at the very least.

Hiding the character stats seems like a very good idea. Also if you are going to do that you could also hide any advances in those stats so that people will only know if they can learn/use something is if they can find someone to train them or they can equip it. The reason someone cannot equip/learn something should also be hidden although I think you should be able to equip just about anything. If you do not meet the stat requirements you just cannot get any benefit from it. Similarly with training, a trainer might well accept your money despite the fact that he judges you unable to learn.

ThomPhoenix

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Re: Magic - How is it used in Yliakum?
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2008, 07:45:09 pm »
Characters with high charisma might be able to charm NPCs. Soon.
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eldoth_terevan

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Re: Magic - How is it used in Yliakum?
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2008, 07:59:50 pm »
Thanks, Thom! Very interesting. Sounds like charisma won't be removed any time soon. Have fun in Runescape, UtM!

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Re: Magic - How is it used in Yliakum?
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2008, 08:51:33 pm »
Characters with high charisma might be able to charm NPCs. Soon.

That's awesome. I want to make out with Jolik... even if he has no lower jaw. But still!  ;D

I think charisma is a good attribute to magic. It's the skill of persuasion, which takes a smart, tactical person. That ties in with intelligence. Makes sense to me.