Magic - How is it used in Yliakum?

[Zan]

Strict enforcement of adherence to game mechanics is frowned upon by some elitists because it would negate the ability to have one set of rules for the elite, and another set of rules for the other players. This is what we essentially have now, and is proved in the fact that RPs degenerate into arguments most of the time. I say the same law should apply equally to all characters, whether they like like it or not. Having a strict system of game mechanics that applies to all characters is highly important, removing stats would just be going backwards. Flame on, but thanks for reading.

Strict enforcement of the game mechanics is frowned upon because the game mechanics are extremely limiting and incomplete. And having an elitist attitude towards elitists doesn't make you better than them.

As for the future uses for intelligence and charisma stats, if the Devs have enough plans and uses for them then obviously they won't be disappearing .. however I still stand by my point that they are rather confusing since a lot it is in the hands of the player, not the mechanics.

[Duraza]

As for the future uses for intelligence and charisma stats, if the Devs have enough plans and uses for them then obviously they won't be disappearing .. however I still stand by my point that they are rather confusing since a lot it is in the hands of the player, not the mechanics.

I'd still be agreeing with Zan. No one ever said that the creators of the game made them for no reason. Obviously they have plans to use them. I just feel it silly. Should I be able to charm an NPC because I have high charisma or because I use my rp skills and select words that are charming? Really to me the obvious choice is the second. Game mechanics are good but relying on them to heavily pushes the game to a hack and slash leveling game more so than a Role Playing game. Last I checked ps is supposed to be a Role Playing game. Why do you think table top rp games exist in the first place? To focus more on true rp than leveling to be able to say my character can do more things than yours.

Now maybe I'm wrong and there really is some great system in place. However all I can see right now is two characters going up the an NPC, one with high charisma one with low. They ask the same question but because the guy with high charisma spent his time leveling he gets a better answer. Is that rp? No. What is rp? When two people, regardless of levels, interact with the NPC. I know that actually expanding an NPC's ability to speak is very difficult (as I've heard so many times) but leveling seems like the easy PL way out that other crappy games take and I don't want ps to be one of them 

[eldoth_terevan]

Actually, no it does not have to push it to a hack and slash. This is old thinking. What we need are commands that enhance RP. 

Let us say that Duraza attempts to hypnotize a character. This process must be fair. The only fair way to do it is by rolling against stats. This is simplistic on purpose, it could be a very complex system of rules. But as an example...

So, both characters roll against their charisma. If they both make the roll, then stalemate for one round and both players lose some "energy". If Duraza makes his roll and the other character does not, then the other character is hypnotized. If the other player makes his roll, and Duraza does not, then the character laughs and walks away.

When people always bring up "powerleveler", "hack n' slash" and a bunch of other useless terms, we fall back into old patterns of thinking. Just because basic game mechanics have been done and redone a thousand times, does not mean that there is nothing to invent. We need NEW game mechanics in PS. I humbly suggest that we put our energy towards identifying new systems of game mechanics that enhance RP, rather than spending our time worrying old bones that the dog buried years ago.

I rather like how Duraza mentioned "using words that are charming", it is possible that certain phrases or words could enhance these sorts of commands.  These things, such as rules and commands that allow rolling against stats and other values, would not be hard to implement even at this time. Parsing a particular type of style from dialect and form would have to be later, but I could see that working as well. Much in the same way that you have to say specific things to NPCs to complete quests. How about spells where you must speak the verbal component of the spells?

While I understand Duraza's point about the guy with high charisma getting the answers because he leveled, I cannot resolve it. Should everyone just get the answers because they are there? What system of judging progression and experience should be in place? Are you saying that we should not judge it at all, so people just get to be whatever just because? That rather goes against the paradigm of the quest system that is already in place. I do sometimes think that a lot of people are going to be disappointed by this game when the game mechanics are more developed.

[Under the moon]

eldoth, I happen to write for PlaneShift Settings. I was not talking about playing the game. As a member of the team, I am in a position to influence things (and have to a large degree) for the betterment of the game. The loss of my writing would be a far larger loss than ditching the silly CHA stat.

Waylander, who knows, I may end up writing exactly how magic works.

[Duraza]

Heh eldoth I read your post and it makes me feel like I'm an old player  Yeah I do follow think in some of the ways of older players I know/knew but thats not always a bad thing. Sometimes the "traditional" way of doing things is the best way. Like when you have a grandpa who has to have something this way and no other way. Because really he knows its the best way to do things.

I totally understand what your saying but I'm sticking by my point. What is the use of a mechanic when rp easily can replace it? Game mechanics should be there to enchance rp, as you said, not replace it. That whole thing with rolling charisma is uneeded in my opinion, an unnecessary step. Game mechanics should focus on all that which players can not do on their own.

To explain why I think that this mechanic is simply limiting rp I'll take your example. What will happen when people find out that they can be hypnotized by Duraza? Why they will all max their charisma. This way Duraza really has no edge to them despite the unrealistiness of the city suddenly becoming Duraza proof. The only people Duraza still has a greater edge on is new players and the rpers that really don't care for the mechanic anyways because they think its silly. Its like a while back when I first started playing. What was the first thing anyone told me to do? Go to leverus, do his quests and get an energy glyph. Why? Because then you can heal yourself in battle. So what will be first now? Go max charisma. That way Duraza doesn't have as good a chance at hypnotizing you.

Regardless of how much you may want to disagree its how people think  What do people say ingame now to a newbie? Sell the air glyph, buy armor/weapons, and go to the sewers to fight. How do they know they have the air glyph? Because it's suddenly "common sense" to pick the air glyph because every newbie knows its the best way to get on the road quicker to leveling up. Does anyone say, want to go to the tavern for a drink? Only the "leet rpers" would say that, people who don't like using the game mechanics as much. To everyone else its common sense the first thing someone new to the city wants to to is fight rats in a dirty sewer.

Noticed I'm going off topic a lot so to wrap it up I think stats like Charisma aren't needed. Adding this whole "roll" thing only shifts away from rp. You don't see it because you've been here a while and know what its for. A newbie will just consider the fact that there is a roll and maxing charisma gives them better odds. No rp skill needed, just hack and slash.

[Jonerian]

When things like charisma, intelligence and so on don't base on stats and rather base on the ability of the player to talk and what he knows, then there is not much of a reason to actually play a RPG. If you want a world where what and how you says things has a huge impact on others reactions: there is one: right outside of that small 17 or 19 inch frame. Yes, you can implement a very intelligent AI to be able to react in a very interesting way on your charming words, but that would be more of the side of a virtual reality and less of RP.

If you just don't like the area where you life and the weakness of your body (stereotyped and exaggerated) than you want a virtual reality to dive in.
If you want to be somebody different then you want to roleplay. For that you need a system that makes it possible to be somebody different in that system. A big part of the system are the stats, which stand for your character (which is not yourself anymore) and the system interacts with the stats and not your ability to charm people with weird talking. That IS part of the role.

Yes, especially MMORPGs are also virtual realities for many people, but for me the question is:
Will PS be more of a RPG (with stats like charisma and intelligence) or a virtual reality (with an enourmous AI and a cyber suit to interact with the game, a holo deck :-P )

The About section on planeshift.it says:

PlaneShift is a Role Playing Game immersed into a 3D virtual fantasy world which is FULLY FREE to play.

Which wouldn't be against a virtual reality point, but in my opinion: you can't excell in both at the same time. It is either not realistic enough or not RP-like enough. You just can't be yourself (in another world) AND play a different role at the same time.

[Prolix]

I have to take issue with the concept of charming words. If that were to be implemented what you would have is endless guilds with their lists of these charming words and newbies would be making Amidson dance the Virginia Reel just for laughs. How would that improve things? At least having stat restrictions delays the inevitable. You could perhaps have a combination of the two  but about the only thing that would do is force those who choose not to join a guild to discover the secrets the hard way. They may prefer that, of course.

By the way where is the role play skill involved in talking to npcs anyway? Unless you are ready to wait however many years it will take to develop their ai that should not be much of a consideration. I suspect they will always be extremely limited in the range of responses compared to other players so perhaps you are expecting too much from the game. The npcs are there to expose the settings and to allow you to advance your character. I do not see how you can expect more. Enlighten me. Would it make you feel better if you eventually discovered in context that everything in the game except the other people connected to the server were programmed illusions? It might help you cope if you assume that is true.

[Under the moon]

Fact1: Not a single player in Planeshift has the ability to believably roleplay a max CHA character.

Fact2: Anybody has the ability to roleplay a 300 STR character.

Fact3: Not a single player has the ability to roleplay a max INT character.

Fact4: Anybody has the ability to level up to and play a magic casting/master swordsman character.

Fact5: Strength can not be bypassed. You can not lift more that your STR says you can. Same goes with END and AGIL.

Fact6: INT and CHA can be bypassed, and are ignored by not only players, but game features themselves, such as quests.

Fact7: Your character's CHA and INT do NOT exceed your own when playing with other people.

Fact8: Any idiot/moron can max all skills and abilities ingame.

Question: How are you going to react to that idiot/moron with max INT and CHA? See facts 1, 3, and  7.

Let me make this perfectly clear. That person who could not roleplay to save his/her life is well within rights to say both that they are smarter than you, AND that you are compelled to listen to what they have to say, and even to feel compelled to do what they ask. You would be the bad roleplayer for not going along with it.

[Prolix]

It would be just as easy to say not a single player has the ability to believably role play a race other than human as there are no other kind of people on Earth therefor everyone must be human. There is not a single player that has the ability to believably role play a magic user as the magic in the game has no real life correspondent and so cannot be believed therefor magic must be removed from the game.

If your character is dumb as a post and equally charismatic because you never bothered to level anything you can always say "you seem to be a nice fellow but I do not understand a word you are saying therefor I am going back to chewing on my bunions."

If you are going to get all wrung out over believability how can you ever be satisfied in a fantasy setting? It is by nature fantastic and unbelievable.

Besides all that you are trying to make an out of character game mechanic an in character consideration. Your character has no idea if his intelligence is 20, 200 or eleventy million.

[Under the moon]

It would be just as easy if you knew nothing about the skills it takes as a writer to create believable worlds. I assume you know nothing of writing in this case if you use that argument. By believable, I mean convincingly. Yes, someone can play an elf or a dwarf convincingly to the point where you can imagine they could be real, even though you know they are not.

There is even a term for it. 'Suspension of disbelief'. Look it up and learn something. It is a psychological trait of humans. One I understand very well, and apparently you do not at all.

I also see you did not answer the question. Maybe instead of getting hung up on one word, you should have thought a tiny bit about the rest of the text.

[Kieve]

Prolix - you need better examples, comrade.

• Aside from the fact that all current in-game races are humanoid, and have relatively superficial biological/psychological differences (ie - there isn't anything I could call truly alien), there are certainly people creative enough and capable enough to RP outside 'the box,' from a perspective the average homosapien couldn't quite grasp. Or to put it another way, just because you're human doesn't necessarily make you human.
  
• What is 'believable' exactly? Literally, capable of being believed. As long as your actions seem plausible and within the rules (as defined by Settings and/or whatever the roleplayers involved agree upon), anyone can 'believably' play a magic user, or any other character.
• In short, saying something doesn't have a real-world parallel doesn't mean it's invalid, it just means a higher degree of creative thinking is required in order to make it viable.

Having said that, from everything I've seen of Planeshift the goal is not to have a fantastic and unbelievable setting, but rather a separate unique worldspace that, despite playing by different rules, does have its own rules to play by.

With regard toward the original questions, regarding the prevalence and usefulness of magic, Yliakum is apparently flooded with it. The Azure sun is constantly outputting a considerable amount of energy, both physical and magical in nature, so I see no reason not to consider 'magic' the equivalent of electricity... an omnipresent element of life, but only rare individuals (see Nikolai Tesla) know its deepest secrets and how to really get the most out of the stuff.

[Phinehas]

I just sit here and shudder at the thought of someone coming up to me and saying, "You have to like me because I maxed my CHA!"

[eldoth_terevan]

This is a good discussion. The example using charisma was a bit simplistic, in a real table top game the characters would never have maxed charisma and the outcome of such a situation would include more data in the calculation.

The reason that I appear to support the game mechanics argument is simply because it gives a way to make the basic system fair to all players. The current RPs in the system are decided on a subjective basis.

Of course, that statement pre-supposes that one considers the progress of the character itself, as enforced by mechanics, fair.

While the NPC server continues to allow low level characters to kill high-level monsters, then that can never be fair. The ease of training stats is directly related to this, and also the trainers should be much harder to access.

I completely agree with Duraza regarding that the character would go an max their charisma. This is the problem, one should not be able to max any stat until a significant amount of time has been spent playing the game.

I also don't think you should be able to max anything around Hydlaa. The trainers that finally max a stat should be on the 8th level or something. It is far too easy now, I totally agree with that.

But how can we have a framework that is fair to all players? There needs to be some way to enforce a system of progression that does not rely on subjective judgements and everybody flighting their own rules of conduct.

As I understand it, settings department is not going to be making decisions concerning game mechanics. What do Talad or Venge say about this? Are they going to remove stats completely, just from the player interface, or not at all?

[Prolix]

This is a good discussion. The example using charisma was a bit simplistic, in a real table top game the characters would never have maxed charisma and the outcome of such a situation would include more data in the calculation.

Are you suggesting that the AD&D Paladin is an unplayable character? One of its basic requirements was a maximum humanly possible charisma of 18. And yet I have seen hundreds of them over the years, at the table or in any one of the computer games put out using the system.

Prolix - you need better examples, comrade.

• Aside from the fact that all current in-game races are humanoid, and have relatively superficial biological/psychological differences (ie - there isn't anything I could call truly alien), there are certainly people creative enough and capable enough to RP outside 'the box,' from a perspective the average homosapien couldn't quite grasp. Or to put it another way, just because you're human doesn't necessarily make you human.
  
• What is 'believable' exactly? Literally, capable of being believed. As long as your actions seem plausible and within the rules (as defined by Settings and/or whatever the roleplayers involved agree upon), anyone can 'believably' play a magic user, or any other character.
• In short, saying something doesn't have a real-world parallel doesn't mean it's invalid, it just means a higher degree of creative thinking is required in order to make it viable.

No I do not think so. Tell me why so many people play enkidukai like rather large cats when they specifically are unrelated to cats? Sure they appear to have a feline appearance but they did not evolve from cats, there are no cats in the game and by rights should not be played as a cat. Do I have to go looking for wherever it was that it was written that they are not cats? Next time I see hear enkidukai purr I am going to have a hairball.

Another thing how is it possible that two dissimilar races can breed and produce a pure-bred one or the other? Everything I have experienced tells me that only very similar genuses can be mixed and the result will have traits drawn from both parents and more than likely will be sterile.

I really think the next time I see Phinehas in the game, with whatever character I happen to be playing, I will challenge him to incinerate me. "Prove that you are all that, geezer! ... What? I'm still standing? ... Charlatan!"

You see, when the basis of the game depends upon the suspension of disbelief you have to swallow it whole and not pick and choose which bits you find tasty. Some bits may be harder to get down but it is all part and parcel of the whole.

Anyone saying "You have to like me because I maxed my CHA!" is not role playing and can be ignored, if they say it in an OOC manner (/tell) you can make up some kind of back story as to why your character does not like him. A charismatic person attracts those people who think he has something to offer them that they want. They play on your personality flaws and if they hit the wrong buttons then they fall flat. Your mistake is to assume that anyone with a max charisma is infallibly attractive which is not humanly possible. It would take god-like levels to compel you to do what you clearly do not want to do. At the best the response to the person saying you have to like me is to say to yourself "is there anything about this character that I can latch onto, however small, to enable me to go along with him." If the answer is no then you may remain unaffected or more likely have have a powerful adverse reaction. If the answer is yes then the result would be to go along with him until the negatives overwhelm the one magnified positive. You may wind up saying to yourself 'what was I thinking', a neutral residual or you may end up hating them.

Another thing is that if all the people you start encountering have maxed charisma then the effect will be significantly reduced as no one or other will stand out.

[Under the moon]

In other words, if the player does not have the skills to roleplay their high charisma stat, you will find a way to ignore it, and only a person with true player charisma will be taken heed of by you, even if they have low charisma stat ingame.

Thank you for proving my point.

Paladins in MMOs? Sure, you can call something a Paladin in an MMO, but once again there is a complete separation between how players will react to the so called charisma stat, and how the game reacts to it. Only a closely monitored game such as PnP can have true paladins, as the GM can force the issue with other players.

A gold-painted brick is still a brick. This is going nowhere. There are obviously two camps here. One that wants game mechanics to apply eqaully to both player and system interactions, and one that thinks it is OK to have two separate levels of interactions.

Finally, there is such a thing as breaking suspension of disbelief. This happens when it no longer enjoyable to gloss over the things that are not convincing.